Conversation with Doctor Franklin &ca.

I went out this forenoon to Doctor Franklin, to know whether he was inclined to enter upon Business. He told me he had carried the Copy of the Commission I gave him to Versailles, the Day before, and had some conversation on the Subject with Monsr. de Vergennes; who was of Opinion with him, that it would be better to wait untill a real Commission arrived; this being neither signed nor Sealed, and could be supposed as only a draft or order, in which there might be alterations;1 as in the Preamble it said only “To the Effect following &c.” To this objection I had nothing to say, as I did not incline to shew them the Instructions, though signed and Sealed.2

Finding no alteration in the Doctor’s manner, from the usual good natured and friendly way in which he had formerly behaved to me (as I had reason to apprehend from what had lately passed with his Colleague) and having a quiet and convenient opportunity, I was anxious to learn whither the Doctor entertained those Ideas, which, in the preceding Papers, I suspected Mr Jay had in view, regarding the means of preventing future Wars, by settling the Peace in such a manner as it should not be the Interest of the Parties to break it.—

With that Intent, I told the Doctor I had had a long conversation with Mr Jay, of which no doubt he had been informed; and in which he had not spared Us in his Reflections on what had passed in the American War; and that I could not but be sorry he had just reason for the Severity of some of them;3 At same ^time^ I was pleased to find he was equally well disposed to Peace, and to bring it quickly to a conclusion as We were, and also that it should be a lasting one, as he, the Doctor, had always proposed. And that I was only at a loss as to how that could be ascertained otherways than by Treaty, which Mr Jay declared he paid no regard to; and said it could be only depended upon as lasting by its being settled so as it should not be the Interests of any of the Parties to break it. I told the Doctor this was certainly the best Security, if one could tell how to accommodate the Terms so justly to the mutual Interest of the Parties, as to obviate every temptation to Encroachment or Trespass.—

The Doctor replied, that the method was very plain and easy. Which was to settle the Terms in the first projection on an equal just and reasonable footing; and so as neither Party should have cause to complain: being the Plan which the Monsr. de Vergennes had in view, and had always recommended in his conversations with him on the Subject of Peace.4 And the Doctor said it was a good Plan, and the only one that could make the Peace lasting. And which also put him in mind of a Story in the Roman History, in the early time of the Republic. When being at War with the State of Tarentum, and the Tarentines having the worst of it they sent to the Senate to ask for Peace. The Ambassador being called in, The Senate told him they agreed to give them Peace, and then ask’d him how long he thought it would last. To which he answered, that would be according to the Conditions. If they were reasonable the Peace would be lasting. If not it would be Short—. The Senate seemed to resent this freedom of Expression. But a Member got up and applauded it, as fair and Manly; and as Justly challanging a due regard to moderation on their part—

It is not easy to say how happy I felt myself at the conclusion of this Quotation. The Terms and Conditions its true remained undecided; and comprehend, no doubt, a very serious Question, although not material to what I aimed at. Nor did I conceive them to lye so much in my way as in that of another Department, by the concern which the French Minister took in settling the Principle. Nor did I trouble myself about the possible inefficacy of it, as still depending in some degree on the obligations of Treaty, however cautiously adjusted. And therefore I did not think it proper to touch upon that point, nor to say any thing on the Subject of Terms & Conditions

I thought myself sufficiently satisfied in getting clear of my apprehensions of those ill founded Suspicions of a supposed American Guarantee being intended; as mentioned in the Papers of the 9th. Instant. And at the same time askin[g] pardon of those to whom that design was unjustly imputed. And which upon my return from this visit, I should have certainly struck out of those Papers, if I did not, with all Submission, incline to think that by remaining under the Eye of Government, they might help to shew that the Question of the possibility of such Guarantee taking place on some future occasion, may still not be undeserving of attention. As to the consequences of such Measure, whenever it happens (as pointed out in the said Papers of the 9th.)5 there can be no doubt—nor do I think it requires much Ingenuity in the Americans quickly to discover the expediency and benefit of resorting to it on a variety of occasions; particularly, in case of our insisting on Terms in the present Treaty, or acting a part in our future correspondence with them, which We cannot support in such manner as to make it appear, to them to be to their Interest (and consistent with their Engagements and the Character they have adopted) quietly and contentedly to submit to.

I am the more ready to hazard the freedom of these observations, and the danger of exciting into action, the least experiment of this kind of combined Interposition of the American Provinces, upon reflecting on Doctor Franklin’s hint or caution, as reported in one of my Letters of last month. “Not to force them into the hands of other People.”6 Which I hope will never happen, But on the contrary, after laying the foundation of Peace, in the best manner that can be done on the bottom on which the Congress wish it to stand, by an amicable and final agreement with their Commissioners here, every possible Measure may thereafter be taken to promote a temper of Reconciliation and Amity over the whole of that Country, as yet there has been nothing done in a Separate way, however unjustly suspected, to interfere with the Plan of such Preliminary & regular Settlement. And I hope the same will be followed out in such a manner, as to shew to the Americans, that all such Concessions as are required and can be reasonably granted, do actually flow from a desire of His Majesty and His Ministers, of laying this foundation on the most just and equitable Principles, and in a mutual relation to the Benefit of one Party as well as the other.7

After that is done, and consequently every pretence and occasion of Jealousy is obviated, and constitutionally out of the Question, I must take the liberty to say, That it will concern the Interest of Great Britain in the most sensible degree, as well in the hopes of returning benefit, as in that of avoiding contingencies of critical danger, to concert, from this time, every possible method of facilitating and perpetuating a friendly correspondence with those Countries.

The second thing the Doctor touched upon was Independence. He said by the Quotations of Acts of Parliament, he saw it was included in the Commission. But that Mr. Grenville had orders to grant it in the first instance. I replied it was true; And that though supposed to be granted under this Commission, and in the course of the Treaty, I hoped it would make no difference with Gentlemen who were so well disposed to put an end to this unhappy Business as I knew him to be.—

He then asks if I had instructions, I said I had, and that they were under His Majesty’s hand and Seal; and that by them it appeared, Independence, unconditional in every sense, would be granted, and that I saw no reason why it should not make the first Article of the Settlement or Treaty. That I was sorry Mr Jay should have hesitated so much on that head, as if it ought to have been done Separately, and by Act of Parliament. And now Parliament being up, that the Grant should be made by Proclamation. That I did not pretend to Judge whether the Right and Authority of a Grant of that kind, so conveyed, would be proper & effectual. There seemed however to be one Inconveniency in it, that a Proclamation became an address to the Congress, and to every part of their Provinces jointly and Separately, and might in so far interfere with the progress of the present Commission, under which We hoped, that all pretensions would be properly and expeditiously settled. That in this matter he was a better Judge, than I could pretend to be. I was only sure of one thing, that the Affair might be as effectually done, as in the way proposed by Mr. Jay. The Doctor replied that Mr Jay was a Lawyer, and might think of things that did not occur to those who were not Lawyers. And he at last spoke as if he did not see much or any difference. But still such mode of expression as I could not positively say would preclude him from insisting on Mr. Jay’s Proposition, or some previous or separate acknowledgement. I was glad to get clear of the Subject without pushing for further explanation or discussion; or yeilding further, as I have mentioned, than to a preliminary acknowledgement in the Course of the Treaty.

I then said after that was done, I hoped there would ^not^ be many things to settle. And that the Articles called Necessary, which he specified on the 10th. of July,8 would pretty nearly end the Business. And that those called Adviseable, which, as a Friend to Britain and to Reconciliation he had then recommended, would be dropt, or modified in a proper manner. That I had fairly stated the Case at home, and could not but confess that I had this Answer from one of his Friends. To this I cannot say I had any reply.

I then told the Doctor there was a particular circumstance, which, of my self, I wished to submit to his consideration, as a friend to returning Peace.

England had ceased all Hostilities against America by Land. At Sea it was otherwise, and however disposed We might be to stop these proceedings there also, I could not see how it could be done until the People of America adopted the same Plan. At the same time I was sensible, that by the strict Letter of their Treaty with France, the Americans could not well alter their conduct before We came to a final Settlement with that Nation. That this was an unfortunate Dilemma for both of Us; That We should be taking each others Ships, when perhaps We might, in other respects, be at perfect Peace; and that notwithstanding thereof We must continue in this course, waiting for a conclusion with France and other Nations, perhaps at a distant period. That although I had no orders on this head, yet as a Continuance in this Species of Hostility seemed to be so repugnant to the Motives and Principles, which had determined a Cessation on the part of England by Land, and was certainly a bar to that cordial Reconciliation which he so much wished for, I could not avoid submitting the Case to his Consideration, to see whether he could find some Remedy for it. The Doctor replied he could not see how it could be done. It would be a difficult thing. However at last he said he would think of it.9

I next touched upon the Subject of the Loyalists, but could not flatter myself with the hopes of its answering any good purpose; The Doctor having from the beginning assured me they could take no part in that Business, as it was exclusively retained under the Jurisdiction of the respective States upon whom the Several Claimants had any demands; and there having been no Power delegated to the Congress on that head, they as Commissioners, could do nothing in it. I only said, that I was sorry that no Method could be suggested for a reasonable accommodation in a Matter, which I could not but suppose he would admit had a natural claim to the consideration of Government. I thought it to no purpose to go any further upon the present occasion. If afterwards things of more immediate concern and importance should get into a Smooth train of proceeding, and be established, and I could venture freely to appeal to their unprejudiced humanity and good sense I would try it; although without hopes of their taking any other part than in suggesting of Means and Expedients; and perhaps favouring the proposals in the way of private recommendation to their Countrymen. As to the ungranted, or unappropriated Lands, although they were undoubtedly the reserved Property of His Majesty in all the States, I am affraid when I come to state that claim as a Fund towards Indemnification, the Commission will pretend these Lands fell with the States, as much, as the King’s Court Houses &c.—10

Upon the whole of this Matter the Doctor said nothing, but that he was advised that the Board of Loyalists at New York was Dissolved by General Carleton, which he was glad of.11

The Doctor at last touched upon Canada, as he generally does upon the like occasions, and said there could be no dependence on Peace and good Neighbourhood, while that Country continued under a different Government, as it touched their States in so great a stretch of Frontier. I told him I was sensible of that Inconveniency. But having no orders, the consideration of that Matter might possibly be taken up at some future time.

At my coming away, the Doctor said, that although the proper Commission was not come over, yet he said Mr Jay would call on me with a Copy of their Credentials. This being Sunday, he said the copy would be made out on Monday. On Tuesday he must go to Versailles, being the Leveé Day. But on Wednesday they would call with their Papers. So that tomorrow I shall probably have the honour of seeing those Gentlemen, and of course may have something still to add to these tedious Writings12