John Jay Papers
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To John Jay from the Secretary for Foreign Affairs (Robert R. Livingston), 12 September 1782

From the Secretary for Foreign Affairs (Robert R. Livingston)

Philadelphia, 12th. Septr. 1782

Dear Sir

We yesterday received Letters from Mr Adams by Capt Smedley,1 who brought out the goods left by Commodore Gillon—2 these were the first advices that had reached us from Europe since your short note of the 14th. of May—3 You will easily believe that this neglect is borne here with some degree of impatience, particularly at this interesting period when we learn that a negotiation for a peace has commenced, & that Mr Grenville is in France upon that business— Mr Adams’s Letters take no more notice of this important transaction than if we were not interested in it, presuming probably that we are fully informed from France

I may think improperly upon this subject, but I cannot be satisfied that a quarterly Letter from our Ministers is sufficient to give Congress the information that is necessary for the direction of their affairs, & yet this is much more than we receive— Some pay half yearly, & others offer only an annual tribute— Your last Letter properly so called is dated in April—4 Doctor Franklin’s in March— This is the more mortifying as want of time can hardly be offered as an excuse by our Ministers, who must certainly have more leisure upon their hands than they know how to dispose of—5 I congratulate you upon your arrival in France, where, if your negotiations are not more successful than they have been in Spain, you will at least enjoy many agreements that will console you under your disappointments— Carleton has informed us that G. Britain had agreed to yield us unconditional independence—6 I find that he has been too hasty in his opinion & that the death of the Marquis of Rockingham has made a very material alteration in the system—7 that this inconsistency may be fully displayed, I would advise you to have the enclosed Letter from Carleton & Digby published in Europe.8 Before the arrival of the packet, every disposition was made for the evacuation of Charles Town, which was publicly announced— The Tories in consequence of it have come out in crowds with the consent of General Leslie, to solicit pardon.9 The works at Quarter House were burnt. Whether this late intelligence will alter their determination, I cannot say— High expectations have also been entertained of the evacuation of New York, where the Royalists were in despair, their hopes are again revived— If the negotiations go on, let me beg you to use every means for procuring a direct trade with the West Indies:10 it is an object of the utmost importance to us, the exports of Philadelphia alone to the Islands amounted before the war to three hundred thousand pounds—they could not have been much less from New York—they were considerable also from the Eastern States, we shall be very long in recovering the distress of the war, if we are deprived of this important Commerce— It is certain too that the European powers who hold Islands would find themselves interested in this intercourse Provided they exclude the introduction of manufactures which might interfere with their own.

In proportion to the expense at which articles of the first necessity are furnished, must be the improvement, population, produce & wealth of the Islands, while the Inhabitants of these are compelled by law as well as allured by fashion and habit to receive their manufactures & luxuries from the mother Country, she must reap the full benefit of such improvement, population, produce & wealth.— It may be said that this check upon the exportation of provisions from the parent state would, by reducing the price of grain discourage Agriculture— To this I would observe that it is extremely doubtful whether it would occasion such reduction 2dly. that if it did, it would be beneficial to the Community.

My doubt upon the 1st. head arises from this consideration: If as I maintain, the encreased wealth & population of the Islands occasions an encreased consumption of the manufactures of the mother country, the provision that formerly fed the Planter abroad, is now consumed at home by the manufacturer, & the price of provisions stands where it did with this clear advantage to the mother Country, that by the cheapness of living on the Islands, She has encreased the number of subjects who till the earth for her abroad, & by the same means has added to the people who make her strength & riches at home.

My second position is grounded upon the competition that prevails at this moment among the maritime manufacturing nations of Europe, France and England particularly. The nation that undersells its rival in foreign markets will sap the foundation of her wealth & power. The nation that can maintain its manufactures, navigate its vessels at the cheapest rate, will undoubtedly enjoy this advantage, all things else being equal.— It is obvious that the price of labour is regulated by that of provisions, that manufacturers never earn more than a bare subsistence—if so, where provisions are cheap manufactures can be carried on to the most advantage— Of this, the East Indies are a striking proof— In proportion too to the price of provisions & the price of labor which depends upon it, must be the expense of building & navigating Ships— Both these advantages where there is a concurrence, are therefore clearly in favor of the nation that can reduce the price of provisions within her own kingdom— But it may be said that this reduction of the price of provisions which seems so desirable in one view, may be found injurious in another, and that it is at least as expedient to encourage Agriculture as manufactures. I agree in the principle, tho’ not in the application. Going back to my first position that the man who labours gets a bare subsistence—for the moment he does more, the number of labourers in that kind, (provided his employment does not require uncommon skill) increases, and his labour is not more profitable than that of the other labourers of the country, it will follow then, that so far as he consumes what he raises, the price will be entirely out of the question— If a bushel of grain a day is necessary for the support of his family, he will equally raise & equally consume that grain, whether it sells for a penny or a pound— But as there are other Articles necessary for the use of his family that he must purchase, this purchase can only be made by the excess of what he raises beyond his own consumption— If he purchases the manufactures of the Country, & they rise in proportion to the value of provisions, it must be a matter of indifference to the husbandman whether the price of the latter is high or low— Since the same quantity will be necessary to purchase what his necessities demand—in either case, unless indeed his provisions are carried to foreign markets, and the manufactures he wants imported in which case the price of his grain will become an object of moment & operate as an encouragement to Agriculture— But it would also in the same proportion operate as a check on the manufactures, population & navigation of the Country—on the first, for reasons which have been already explained, on the second, because manufactures require more hands than agriculture, & on the third, because the expense of labor, which encreases with the diminution of population, & the price of victualling the vessels employed in the transportation of their produce—will enable nations who can maintain their Subjects cheaper to navigate their Vessels at a lower rate, & of course to engross this branch of business, unless the laws of the state such as acts of navigation, shall forbid, in which case these acts will operate so far as a discouragement upon agriculture, the advanced freightage being so much deducted from the husbandman’s profit.

There are many collateral arguments to shew the policy of this measure even with a reference to agriculture, arising out of the general positions I have stated, such as the advantage the husbandmen find in a manufacturing Country, such as placing weak or supernumerary children to trades—procuring a number of hands on a Short notice at any one of those critical periods which so frequently occur in the culture of lands, without being compelled to maintain them all the year, which increase their profit, tho’ they reduce the price of grain— But these are too extensive to take notice of them here. I will conclude with some observations which arise from the circumstances of this country with relation to Europe, which I trust will be found so important as to merit attention.

The commercial Nations of Europe begin already to see that the attention which is almost universally afforded to the improvement of manufactures must set bounds to their commerce, unless they can open new markets— Where are these new markets to be found but in America— Here the wishes & habits of the people will concur with the policy of the government in encouraging the cultivation of their Lands at the expense of manufactures— Both will continue to operate while we have a great wilderness to settle, & while a market shall be afforded for our produce— But if that market is shut against us, if we can not vend what we raise, we shall want the means of purchasing foreign manufactures & of course must from necessity manufacture for ourselves— The progress of manufactures is always rapid when once introduced in a Country where provision is cheap & the means of transportation so extremely easy as it is in America— I am fully pursuaded therefore that it is the interest of a nation with whom present appearances promise us such extensive Commerce as France, to give every encouragement to our Agriculture as the only means of keeping open this market for the consumption of their manufactures— I meant to write a few lines upon this Subject, & I have written a treatise, it will however cost you no great trouble to read it; it may possibly afford you some useful hints

Pigot is at New York with 26 sail of the line—11 The Marquis de Vaudreuil is at Boston with 12—having lost the Magnifique in the harbour, Congress have presented his most Christian Majesty with the America, a seventy four built at Portsmouth— She was to have been commanded by Paul Jones— I wish heartily it were possible to give some employment to that brave Officer.12

The allied army is at present at Verplanck’s Point, in good health & spirits— Where is the Marquis dela Fayette? we have impatiently expected him these four months—13 Present my compliments to him, General Du Portail & the Viscomte de Noailles, tell the last I congratulate him on his preferment tho’ it is with difficulty since it is to deprive us of the pleasure of seeing him again— I have written you four private letters since the last I had from you,14 I have the honor to be, Dear Sir with very great esteem Your most obedt humble Servt.

Robt. R Livingston

His Excellency John Jay Esqr.

LS, NNC (EJ: 7939). Endorsed: “No 13— R. Livingston / 12 Sep. 1782 / recd 5 Nov 1782”. Marked: “No. 13”. Dft, NHi: R.R. Livingston (EJ: 831); LbkC, DNA: PCC, item 79, 1: 468–74 (EJ: 11368); E, NjP (EJ: 5310). Notation on DNA LbkC: “1 copy by Washington Packet / 2plicate by the Nonsuch / 3plicate by Herr Adams—”.

1Smedley commanded the Heer Adams, which sailed in July and reached Philadelphia on 10 Sept. 1782. PJA description begins Robert J. Taylor, Gregg L. Lint, et al., eds., Papers of John Adams (16 vols. to date; Cambridge, Mass., 1977–) description ends , 13: 133–34, 465; and PRM description begins E. James Ferguson et al., eds., The Papers of Robert Morris, 1781–1784 (9 vols.; Pittsburgh, Pa., 1973–99) description ends , 6: 351.

2See the notes to JJ to Alexander Gillon, 9 Oct. 1781, JJSP, 2 description begins Elizabeth M. Nuxoll et al., eds., The Selected Papers of John Jay, Volume 2, 1780–82 (Charlottesville, Va., 2012) description ends : 607–8nn1–3.

3JJ to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, 14 May 1782, JJSP, 2 description begins Elizabeth M. Nuxoll et al., eds., The Selected Papers of John Jay, Volume 2, 1780–82 (Charlottesville, Va., 2012) description ends : 793.

4See JJ to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, 28 April 1782, JJSP, 2 description begins Elizabeth M. Nuxoll et al., eds., The Selected Papers of John Jay, Volume 2, 1780–82 (Charlottesville, Va., 2012) description ends : 747–77.

5Although JJ did not explicitly acknowledge receipt of this letter and no reply has been found, it was among the dispatches carried by Barney that reached Paris in early November 1782. See endorsement in source note, and the editorial note “The Preliminary Articles: Second Draft” on p. 204n15.

7While Rockingham had been willing to concede American independence in return for a separate peace settlement with them, Shelburne initially believed that it would substantially diminish England’s status. See PBF description begins William B. Willcox et al., eds., The Papers of Benjamin Franklin (40 vols. to date; New Haven, Conn., 1959–) description ends , 37: 102–3, 598–99.

8For Carleton and Digby’s letter to Washington, 2 Aug., and Washington to Congress, 5 Aug. 1782, in which it was enclosed, see DNA: PCC, item 152, 10: 665–71; and LDC description begins Paul H. Smith et al., eds., Letters of Delegates to the Continental Congress, 1774–1789 (26 vols.; Washington, D.C., 1976–98) description ends , 19: 36–37.

9Alexander Leslie, who replaced Cornwallis as British commander in the south. Preparations for the evacuation of Charleston began on 7 Aug., but the evacuation was not completed until 14 Dec. 1782. PRM description begins E. James Ferguson et al., eds., The Papers of Robert Morris, 1781–1784 (9 vols.; Pittsburgh, Pa., 1973–99) description ends , 6: 186n.; and Richard L. Blanco, ed., The American Revolution, 1775–1783 (New York and London, 1993), 1: 919–20.

10RRL’s arguments for retaining access to the West Indies trade that Americans had enjoyed during the war paralleled arguments then being developed in Congress and in the Office of Finance for presentation to both France and Spain in anticipation of peace. See PRM description begins E. James Ferguson et al., eds., The Papers of Robert Morris, 1781–1784 (9 vols.; Pittsburgh, Pa., 1973–99) description ends , 8: 468–69. Winning the repeal of mercantilist trade prohibitions was an objective of American foreign policy from 1776. JJ had included proposals for trade on a most favored nation basis among the general treaty proposals he had submitted to Floridablanca for consideration on 22 Sept. 1781, above. In the fourth article of the first draft of the preliminary peace treaty with Britain (8 Oct. 1782, below), he included a provision for restoration of trade between the United States and Britain on the same basis as it had existed before independence.

11Admiral Hugh Pigot had been given the command of the British West Indies fleet by the Rockingham administration. He replaced Admiral George Rodney. PRM description begins E. James Ferguson et al., eds., The Papers of Robert Morris, 1781–1784 (9 vols.; Pittsburgh, Pa., 1973–99) description ends , 7: 479.

12On the Magnifique and the America, and on the permission granted to Jones to pursue “marine Knowledge” as a guest of the Marquis de Vaudreuil on his flagship, Le Triomphant, see PRM description begins E. James Ferguson et al., eds., The Papers of Robert Morris, 1781–1784 (9 vols.; Pittsburgh, Pa., 1973–99) description ends , 6: 302; 7: 134–35.

13Lafayette had planned to return to the United States in the spring of 1782 but delayed his departure when serious peace negotiations began. See John Jay’s Diary of the Peacemaking, entry for 12 Oct. 1782, below; and PBF description begins William B. Willcox et al., eds., The Papers of Benjamin Franklin (40 vols. to date; New Haven, Conn., 1959–) description ends , 37: 74–75.

14JJ’s Account Book of Letters Sent and Received, NNC, records receipt of only one private letter from RRL in 1782, that of 22 May, received 18 July 1782. See JJSP, 2 description begins Elizabeth M. Nuxoll et al., eds., The Selected Papers of John Jay, Volume 2, 1780–82 (Charlottesville, Va., 2012) description ends : 794–95. No other private letters have been found.

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