John Jay’s Diary of the Peacemaking, 12–29 October 1782
John Jay’s Diary of the Peacemaking, 12–29 October 1782
Octr. 1782
12. Dined with ^at^ Dr. Franklins with Sr. Edward Newenham,1 his Lady, eldest Son, & two Daughters—
15 Gen. du portail & Col. Gouvion set out for America—2 Gave the Gen. Letters for Secy Livingston, with which were inclosed others—for Gov. Livingston, R. Morris, G. Morris, & Fredk. Jay—3
16 Mr. Oswald recd. a Courier from London—dind. with Sr. Edw—
17. Mr Oswald sent me some English papers, but no other Communn— Sr. Edw. & Family spent this Evg here4
18. Dined with span. Embassador,—5 a large Company—the Duke of Berwick6 & his Dutches—viscount le herrida7 &c. &c. &c. I took occasion to
mention to the Embassador with ^Mr.^ Oswalds new Comn. & my Regret that Spain should be later than Britain in acknowg our Independence— He said he had powers to treat with me tres bellement whenever I shd be authorized to settle our Limits, wh. must be done previous to other Engagements—he asked whether I had mentioned that Matter to Congress. I told him I had—he said that when my further Instructions shd. [arrive] we might proceed &c.
Philip VB. Livingston8 arrived from Spa—where he had gone from England a Month or six Weeks before—he had seen my Brother Sr. James in England, and removed the apprehensions I had been led to entertain of his having acted improperly— The Surmises against him appear by Mr Livingston acct. to be without Foundation—9
19 Mr. Livingston breakfasted and dined with me: I carried him this morning to Dr. Franklin’s— He doubts Ld. Shelburns Sincerity.
Sr. Edward & Family took their Leave of us; with many kind Expressions &c:—he gave me two Magazines containing the Memoirs of himself and Family—
It is said there are great Commotions and expected Changes in the Cabinet here—^&^ Joly Fleury10 to go out—
con Mr. F.11 wrote to his Friends in Am. that he was desired to stay here by Dr. Franklin & myself to assist in the Business of peace, & he desired his Correspondent to let such Ideas appear in the public papers—I am sure this Fact is ill founded—the Letter went by the ship wh. carried Duportail—
Mr Fitzherbert recd. a Courier from London—
20. Viscount le Herida & lady pd. us their first Visit— Mr Fox12 of Phia. did the same—
con.— I hear that Mr. Fleury at Council remarked that Mr DeCastres had spent a great number of millions on the Navy to little purpose—that Mr Vergennes supported this assertion, & that De Castres carried the Matter so high as that one or other of those Ministers wd. probably go out13
Do— Count de Vergennes speaking of the british Comrs. here said, that unless they decided within ten Days or a Fortnight, they shd. not be permitted to stay here to keep up their Stocks & intrigue—
21 Octr. 1782
Visited Mr. Oswald—he told me that he expected the Answer of his Court to the Articles,14within a few Days, & as he had recommended them warmly, did not doubt of their being agreed to—that the last Courier had been sent on the following Business viz
The Complaints against Rodney’s Conduct at Statia had been committed to the managemt. of Mr DCastrie ^Walpole^15 here, with Mr d Castries—16
that De Castres had written to the Eng. ministry that unless an order for Restitution was given within ten Days, he wd. direct Reprizals to be made at Granada. That Mr Fitzherbert was charged to represent this Matter to Mr Vergennes, who on seeing the Letter of Mr DeCastries expressed much Surprize.
He also told me that a Mr Poultney17 had within a few Days arrived here to place his Daughter (a rich Heiress) in a Convent that Mr. Poultney in Confidence gave him the following curious anecdote vizt. [“]That in the latter part of last Winter or Beginning of last Spring there was an Englishman of Distinction here, who in Conversation with a Friend of Mr Vergennes, expressed his Regret that the affairs of America could not be so arranged as to lead to Peace— The Friend mentioned this to Mr Vergennes, who agreed to admit the Englishman to an Audience on the Subject— Accordingly the Englishman & this Friend waited upon the Minister, who in the Conference offered to divide America with Britain; and in Case the latter agreed to the partition that the Force of France ^& Britain^ should be used to reduce it to the obedience of the respective sovereigns—on parting the Minister said that in Case this offer should not be accepted, he reserved to himself the Right of denying all that he had said about it—that this offer was refused and that the Friend in a Letter to the Englishman had expressed his Regret on the Subject”—
Mr Oswald told me further that Mr Poultney assured him that he recd. this Information from the Englishman’s own mouth—
Mr Oswald spoke handsomely of Mr Poultney’s Caracter— I advised him to trace the Matter further, and if true, to get it properly authenticated—which he promised to do—18
24 Octr. Mr Oswald told me he had recd. a Courier last night— That our articles were under Consideration, & that Mr Strachey, Ld. Mr Townsend’s Secy was on the way here to confer with us abt. them.
Mr Oswald declined informing me of the particular objections, but it was easy to percieve from his Conversation that they related to the back Lands, & he further said “he believed this Court had found Means to put a Spoke in our Wheel[”]:—he told me that Fitzherbert had recd. an answer to the french Propositions, that the answer inadvertently gave away the Gum Trade, and that he had in vain desired him to postpone the Delivery of the answer till he should apprize his Court of the Mistake, and give them an opportunity of correcting it— He consulted me on the possibility of keeping Mr Stracheys coming a Secret— I told him it was not possible, and that it wd. be best to declare the Truth abt. it. vizt. that he was coming with Books & Papers relative to our Boundaries
He also mentioned to me his having recd. several Letters from a Gentlen. at St. Germains inviting him to go there & promising to communicate something of great Importance—he shewed me the last Letter— I advised him to go, especially as the Gent. seemed to press it exceedingly
Dined with Dr. Franklin— I found Mr De Raynevalle there— Just before after Dinner, the Dr. informed me that Raynevalle had sent him word that he wd. dine with him to Day & wd. be glad to meet me there— I told the Dr. what I had heard from Oswald abt. Strachey, & that I thought it best not to say more to Rayneval than that we met with Difficulties, & that Oswald expected to recieve Instructions in a few Days.
We retired with Rayneval—he asked how Matters stood between us & Oswald—we told him that we could not agree abt all our Boundaries—we mentiond. the one between us & Nova Scotia— He asked what we demanded to the north—we answd. that Canada shd. be reduced to its ancient Bounds— He then contested our Right to these back Lands—&ca &c.19
He asked what we expected as to the Fisheries, we said the same Right we had formerly enjoyed—he contested the propriety of that Demand, adding some Strictures on the ambitious & Restless views of Mr Adams—& intimated that we might be content with the Coast Fishery20
25 Octr. had a long Conversation with Mr Vaughan on the State of the negociation—we agreed in all things
26 Octr. Marq. Fayette called upon me— He had heard from Dr. Franklin that Shelburn was abt sending his Secy here. I explained this according to the advice I had given Mr Oswald— He asked whether I thought New York wd be evacuated—this was a leading Question—and I answered— NO—he sd Gen. Washington had the taking of that place much at Heart and that he had often applied to the Ministers here for aid—that they seemed disinclined, & said that it was not worth while to form Expeditions for the taking of places which must necessarily be given up at a Peace.
He mentioned DEstaings going from hence to Spain, & probably thence to the West Indies, & that he was going with him—21 He also said that he wd. endeavour to turn that Matter to our advantage and wd. correspond with Gen. Washington on the Subject.
Mr. Adams arrived this Evg—
Octr. 28 Monday— Mr. Adams was with me 3 Hours this morng.— I mentioned to him the Progress & present State of our Negociation with Britain, my Conjectures as to the Views of France & Spain, & the Part which it appeared to me adviseable for me to act. He concurred with me in Sentiment on all these Points— He recounted the affairs of his Negociation in Holland & the Advice given him by the french Emb. there— He spoke freely what he thought of Dr. Franklin—22 Being both of us engaged to dine with Mr Allen of Boston,23 we went there— He returned with me in the Evening which we spent in very interesting Communications to each other
29 Mr Oswald informed me that Mr Strachey arrived Yesterday—he spoke of limiting our western Extent by a longitudinal Line on the East of the Missisippi— I told him if that was insisted upon it was needless to talk of Peace, for that we never wd. Yield that point—he proposed to bring Mr Strachey to see me— He did so—
Mr Strachey came, & soon after Mr Adams— Some loose Conversation ensued abt. the Refugees— English Debts— Drying Fish &c: We are to meet him Tomorrow at 11 oCl. at Mr Oswalds—24
Oswald told me in Confidence that his Court had not yet given an answ. to the Spanish Propositions,25 & that they had offered to give Trinidad for Gibralter—26
AD, NNC (EJ: 13316).
1. Sir Edward Newenham (1732–1814), a member of the Irish Parliament for County Dublin, 1776–97, who was defiantly pro-American. Maurice R. O’Connell, Irish Politics and Social Conflict in the Age of the American Revolution (Philadelphia, 1965), 25–35. SLJ sent Lady Newenham “a little canister of better Tea than can probably be found in the Shops of this City.” 16 Oct. 1782. Dft, NNC (EJ: 9171).
2. Major General Louis Le Bègue de Presle Duportail (1743–1802), and Jean Baptiste, chevalier de Gouvion (1747–92). Duportail was returning to the United States from an extended furlough. He took passage on the Danaé, a French frigate that left Rochford on 8 Nov. and ran aground in the Delaware River during a snowstorm. In addition to dispatches for La Luzerne from Vergennes and from BF, and JJ’s letters to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs and to Robert Morris, and some private correspondence, the ship brought money for the French army. The dispatches reached Philadelphia on 23 Dec. See , 19: 494–95, 526; , 6: 576, 7: 223, 229–30; and 119–20.
3. JJ to Frederick Jay, 3 Oct., above, and to Gouverneur Morris, Robert Morris, and RRL, all 13 Oct., below, and to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, 18 and 28 Sept. 1782, above. In addition, JJ transmitted SLJ to William Livingston, 14 Oct., ALS and Dft, NNC (EJ: 6448, 6447); and SLJ to Mary White Morris, 14 Oct. 1782, Dft, NNC (EJ: 6446).
4. Matthew Ridley was also present, and noted that Fitzherbert and Benjamin Vaughan and his brother were there for part of the evening. 121.
5. For a description of the conde d’Aranda’s residence at the Place Louis XV and its splendid vistas, see , 3: 136, 137.
6. Probably Charles Ferdinand Stuart-Fitz James (1752–87), but for the attainder of the line, 4th Duke of Berwick, also 4th Duke of Liria and Xerica, a gentleman of the Chamber to Charles III of Spain.
7. Don Ignacio, conde de la Heredia, Spanish ambassador at The Hague.
8. SLJ’s cousin, Philip Van Brugh Livingston (1740–1810), eldest son of Peter Van Brugh Livingston, was then touring Europe. Known as “Gentleman Phil” for his polished manners, Livingston had been the private secretary to Sir Henry Moore, governor of New York, 1765–69. Edwin B. Livingston, The Livingstons of Livingston Manor (New York, 1910), 8; and : 126n3.
9. On the controversy Sir James generated, see “Sir James Jay” (editorial note), : 783–87, and, for later developments, “Sir James Jay: Revisited” (editorial note) on pp. 275–77.
10. Jean-Francois Joly de Fleury (1718–1802), had replaced Necker as Minister of Finance on 24 May 1781. He was himself replaced by Lefèvre d’Ormesson in the spring of 1783. See , 7: 276.
11. The marquis de Lafayette, whose letters to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs (not found) and to Washington of 14 Oct. were carried by the Danaé. The letters to his unidentified friends have not been found. In the letter to Washington, Lafayette stated that he had been “kept in this country at the request of the American plenipotentiaries and with a view to be serviceable to our cause.” See , 7: 229–30; and , 5: 814–15.
12. George Fox of Champlost, Philadelphia, to whom William Temple Franklin bequeathed the papers of Benjamin Franklin. , 7: 328n.
13. In a letter to JA of 21 Oct., Ridley noted: “All Things do not go right here and I should not be surprized was there to be a change almost similar to the one in England. Quarrels are gotten to a pretty great height— Fleury has attacked the Minister of Marine on account of his Expences. V. rather sides with the Comptroller, The Queen with the Marine and so between them there will be a Struggle untill either one or the other goes and maybe the whole. Should such an event take place some talk of Choiseul and Neckar. . . . The Effects I see in all this business is that most probably that of Peace may be retarded by it.” In April 1783, Lafayette wrote Washington to express his “Great Satisfaction” that Fleury had been forced to resign in March and noted that “His Principles and His Views Were Quite opposed to mine.” In his diary entry of 28 Oct., Ridley commented “French Ministry still quarrelling it is apprehended some change may take place.” Fleury had made enemies raising taxes to cover huge budget deficits caused in part by the expenses of the war and for attempting to reduce the expenses of the court. His successor, Lefèvre d’Ormesson, was a cousin of Lafayette’s wife. See , 13: 537, 539, 540n.; 122–23; , 5: 124, 125.
15. Admiral Rodney had taken swift reprisals against the residents of St. Eustatius on the British capture of that Dutch island. Thomas Walpole, a London banker and longtime western lands associate of BF, had been assigned the task of negotiating with Castries concerning the claims of French settlers whose property had been seized by the British. See Piers Mackesy, The War for America (Cambridge, Mass., 1964), 416–17; Fox to Walpole, 1 May 1782, UkLPR: FO 27/ 2; and [Grantham] to Fitzherbert, 16 Oct. 1782, UkLPR: FO 27/ 3.
16. Charles Eugene Gabriel de La Croix, marquis de Castries (1727–1801), head of France’s Ministry of Marine, 1780–87.
17. Sir William Pulteney (1729–1805), a member of Parliament from Shrewsbury, who had some years before made a secret peace proposal to BF. , 110, 255, 359.
18. For Oswald’s subsequent identification of John Stuart, viscount Mountstuart, as the source of this information, see JJ’s Diary of 22 Dec. 1782, below.
19. See Rayneval’s Memoir on the Boundaries between Spain and the United States, 6 Sept. 1782, above.
20. Shortly after being briefed by JJ, JA commented in his Diary: “Mr. Jay likes Frenchmen as little as Mr. Lee and Mr. Izard did. He says they are not a Moral People. They know not what it is. He dont like any Frenchmen.— The Marquis de la Fayette is clever, but he is a Frenchman. Our Allies dont play fair, he told me. They were endeavouring to deprive Us of the Fishery, the Western Lands, and the Navigation of the Missisippi They would even bargain with the English to deprive us of them. They want to play the Western Lands, Missisippi and whole Gulph of Mexico into the Hands of Spain.” See , 3: 46–47.
21. The exact nature of comte d’Estaing’s mission was not known to the Americans at this time. He had been assigned to lead a Franco-Spanish expedition against the British West Indies on which Lafayette was to have commanded the land forces. The expedition was aborted when the two nations signed preliminaries with Britain in January 1783. JA suspected his squadron might have been assigned to “take N. York, or only prevent the English from evacuating it,” a plan that would have interfered with JJ’s proposal that British troops stationed in New York could be assigned to retake West Florida. See , 3: 45.
22. Ridley reported in his diary that he had had great difficulty in persuading JA to visit BF. See 123.
23. Jeremiah Allen, a Boston merchant, one of the experts on the fisheries whom JA consulted when in Paris. , 3: 83.
24. Henry Strachey, confidential secretary to Thomas Townshend, who had been dispatched to Paris by the British ministry because it considered excessive Oswald’s concessions to the Americans. Strachey was instructed to defend Britain’s claim to eastern Maine and to the western lands as a refuge for Loyalists, to restrict the concession of fishing rights to the Americans, and to procure satisfaction for British creditors. After his initial meeting with the Americans Strachey was cautiously optimistic that he might be able to win some concessions. See , 1: 619–22, 623, 629–30.
25. In a dispatch of 27 Oct. 1782, Vergennes reported to Montmorin that Britain’s reply to Spain’s proposal was “only verbal,” because England was so dissatisfied “with the excess of the Spanish pretentions.” He expressed the hope that Spain would modify its demands, and noted that he intended to impress Aranda with France’s need for peace and the necessity of negotiating “promptly and in good faith” so that the groundwork of a settlement could be laid before Parliament went into session on 26 Nov., at which time he considered the British ministry “would no longer be the master of its resolutions.” See , 1: 627–28.