Memorandum of Conversation between Livingston and La Luzerne, [ca. 23 September] 1782
Memorandum of Conversation between
Livingston and La Luzerne
MS (LC: Rives Collection of Madison Papers). Docketed by JM, “Chevr. Luzerne Communications of Mr. of France relative to Mr. Grenvilles proposals at Versailles Sepr. 1782.”
Editorial Note
This “paper” of JM poses three editorial problems: when did the “Conversation” between La Luzerne and Livingston take place; from what source did JM derive his information of what was said at that conference; and when did he prepare his memorandum?
La Luzerne probably received Vergennes’ instructions late in the morning of 17 September. Livingston left for his home in New York about twenty-four hours later and was away from Philadelphia thereafter until 29 October. On the morning of 18 September he wrote to Dana, Franklin, Jay, and Lafayette, and added a postscript to his dispatch of 15 September to Adams. Although Livingston remarked in his letter to Lafayette, “my Horses wait to carry me to the banks of Hudson,” he also stated that he expected a call from the Prince de Broglie later in the morning and had been with him (at La Luzerne’s?) the evening before. In none of these letters did Livingston mention a conference with La Luzerne either as having recently taken place or as scheduled for later on the eighteenth (JM to Randolph, 16–17 September, and n. 20; , VI, 490, 529; NA: PCC, No. 118, fols. 295, 300–309). On the other hand, quite apart from the evidence furnished by the caption of JM’s memorandum, La Luzerne most likely would have informed Livingston during the afternoon or evening of 17 September of whatever Vergennes in his dispatches had directed the French minister to transmit to the American secretary for foreign affairs. Barbé-Marbois may have been present at this meeting and subsequently acquainted his good friend and confidant, JM, with the gist of what La Luzerne had said.
After devoting its sessions of 19 and 20 September almost exclusively to a debate upon Henry Laurens’ conduct in Great Britain, Congress recessed until Monday, the twenty-third. On the twenty-third, after La Luzerne made known that he had been instructed by Vergennes to communicate information about the peace negotiations and “sundry matters interesting to the common cause,” Congress appointed a committee to confer with him (NA: PCC, No. 95, fol. 140; , XXIII, 594). In his letter of 24 September to Randolph (q.v.), JM’s summary of news about those subjects was obviously based on the report of the conference committee on that day (, XXIII, 596–603) rather than on the present “Memorandum.” See also Virginia Delegates to Harrison, 24 September 1782, n. 4. JM could not have prepared this memorandum before 17 September and would not have prepared it after 23 September, because it was rendered obsolete the next day by the more detailed coverage of most of the same topics by the committee report.
[ca. 23 September 1782]
Conversation between Chevr. de la Luzerne & Secy. of Foreign Affairs on the Substance of letters of 25 & 29 June 1782 from the Ct. de Vergennes to the Minister of France.1
That Mr. Oswald had by directions of the British Ministry made some proposals to Docr. Franklin while similar proposals were made to Mr. Adams,2 that on their having been communicated to him he (Vergennes)3 expressed a desire to converse with Mr Oswald who accordingly waited on him4 & told him the substance of what he was charged to say to Mr. Franklin—that the Court informed him that the King was desirous of peace if such terms were offered as were consistent with justice & the interest of his allies—that upon Mr. Oswalds reporting this, Mr. Grenville was sent over who immediately proposed to treat with France on the subject of American Independence & with respect to other articles to make the Treaty of Paris the basis of their negociation; to which it was answered that as to American Independence the King had no power to treat of it & that it would be more consistent with the dignity of the King of England as well as with that of the U. States to open a direct negociation on that subject with their Ministers—that the treaty of Paris could not be considered as the basis of a peace, but that it must be regulated by the justice of the claims on each side—that in consequence of this reply Mr. Grenville recd. powers to relinquish the Independence of America unconditionally & to propose the treaty of Paris as a foundation on which to open the negociations without its being considered as obligatory in the progress of it.
To this it was replied that the King agreed to negociate provided the interests of all his Allies were included in the Treaty—the Independence of America unconditionally acknowledged—and the Treaty of Paris only considered as the means of opening the negociation5 without precluding his Majesty from the right of proposing such changes as he thought proper, particularly in the East Indies and on the Coast of Africa.6
Thus matters stood when these advices left Paris,7 with this addition that the Cabinet of England was greatly divided on the subject of American affairs—that Lord Shelburne was absolutely opposed to any other Independence than such as had been granted to Ireland8—that the Ct. had of late observed some tergiversation in the Ministry which would probably draw out the negociation to some length—that he was inform’d that the Bill enabling the King to make peace with America which must be the foundation of an acknowledgment of independence, had not yet passed but was designed to be deferred to the next sessions.9
1. For the portion of the conference committee’s report of 24 September, which bears upon the same subject as this memorandum, see , XXIII, 600–603.
2. See JM to Randolph, 5–6 August, n. 9; 9 August; 24 September, and nn. 3 and 9; Virginia Delegates to Harrison, 9 August, and n. 1; 13 August; 24 September 1782, and n. 4. Although the possibility of instituting negotiations for a truce or peace had been broached to John Adams at Amsterdam by an agent of the Rockingham ministry as early as March 1782, the principal conversations were between Franklin and Oswald in Paris, beginning on 16 April of that year (, V, 269, 298, 535, 543–44; , IV, 284, 286, n. 23; JM to Randolph, 5–6 August 1782, and n. 9).
Richard Oswald (1705–1784), a merchant of London, had prospered from supplying matériel to the British army and from trading with the British colonies in North America and the West Indies. In both of these areas and in his native Ayrshire, Scotland, he had invested in land. Among his friends were Adam Smith, Henry Laurens, and Benjamin Franklin. Regarded by the Earl of Shelburne as a man of good judgment, Oswald was formally commissioned on 25 July 1782 by King George III as his principal envoy in negotiating a treaty of peace.
3. JM placed the name within parentheses and interlineated it above “he.”
4. The report of the conference committee mentions Oswald’s conversation with Vergennes but does not state that the French foreign minister had invited it (, XXIII, 600).
5. From the position of superscript number “4” in the text to this point, the memorandum is approximately the same in its contents as those of the report of the conference committee (, XXIII, 600–602).
6. The conference committee’s report extends these particularizations by including “the fisheries of Newfoundland, and commercial regulations in Europe to mutual advantage” (, XXIII, 602). See also JM to Randolph, 24 September 1782, and n. 9.
7. That is, on 29 June 1782. See , XXIII, 603.
8. This reference is not in the report of the conference committee. For the redress by Great Britain of some of Ireland’s grievances, see , IV, 388, n. 9; 432; 433, n. 9; 434–35. In a letter of 25 June 1782, received by Livingston at the same time that Vergennes’ instructions reached La Luzerne, Franklin commented: “Ireland, you will see, has obtained all her demands triumphantly. I meet no one from that country who does not express some obligations to America for their success” (, V, 511).
9. Although Parliament would not acknowledge the independence of the United States prior to the opening of the formal negotiations of peace, the British Cabinet on 21 September 1782 issued a new commission to Richard Oswald, directing him to conclude a peace or truce with the commissioners empowered for the same purpose by the “thirteen United States, any law, act, or acts of Parliament, matter, or thing to the contrary in anywise notwithstanding” (, V, 748–50, 749 n.; Samuel Flagg Bemis, ed., The American Secretaries of State and their Diplomacy [10 vols.; New York, 1927–29], I, 58–75). Parliament had adjourned on 11 July and did not reconvene until 26 November, when it adjourned to 5 December 1782 (, XXIII, cols. 203–4). See also JM to Randolph, 24 September, and n. 3; 30 September, and n. 13; 17 December 1782, and n. 17.