John Jay Papers

John Jay’s Notes on Conversations with Benjamin Franklin, 19 July 1783–17 April 1784

John Jay’s Notes on Conversations with Benjamin Franklin

[19 July 1783–17 April 1784]

19 July 1783

Dr. Franklin told me that not long after the elder Lewis Morris1 (who was once chief Justice of NYork) came to the Governmt. of NJersey, he involved himself in a Dispute with the assembly of that Province—the Doctr. (who was then a printer at Pha.) went to Burlington while the assembly was sitting there, & were engaged in the Dispute with their Govr.—the House had referred his message to a Committee, consisting of some of their principal members, Jos. Cooper was one of them—but tho they were Men of good understanding & respectable, yet there was not one among th them capable of writing a proper ansr. to the Message and Cooper who was acquainted with the Dr. prevailed upon him to undertake it—he did and went thro the Business much to their Satisfaction— In Consideration of the Aid he gave them in that way & afterwards, they made him their Printer2 ^(this shews the then State of Literature in Jersey)^

Robert Hunter Morris,3 the Son of the former, and who for about a Year was Govr. of Pennsylvania the Dr. knew very well— It seems that the Dr. was at New York in on His way to Boston when Morris arrived there from England— He asked the Dr. many Questions abt. Pennsylvania, abt. the Temper of the People, and whether he thought it difficult for him to pass his Time agreable among them—the Dr. told him nothing wd be more easy if he avoided Disputes with the Assembly—w but replied he laughingly, why wd. you have me deprive myself of one of my greatest pleasures—he was fond of disputing and thought he had Talents for it— However added he I will take your advice—on Franklin’s Return from Boston to Pha. he found the Govr. and assembly in warm altercations—the Dr. was a member of the assembly, and was appointed to Draw up their answr.— Morris after having sent a Message to the assembly, met Saml Rhodes4 and asked him what he thought of it— Rhodes said he thought it very smart—ah sd. Morris I thought so too when I had finished it—but tomorrow we shall see Benj. Franklin’s answer and then I suspect we shall both change our minds—altho he knew that Franklin conducted the Dispute agt. him—yet they were always good Friends, and frequently dined together &c.— When the Dr’s. Son5 was many Years afterwards made Govr of Jersey, & was going to take upon him the Govt. Morris came to meet him on the Road, and behaved kindly & in a friendly Manner— He was a very good natured Man—had Talents & Learning but his Imagination was too strong & he was not deep in any Thing—

The elder Lewis Morris was brought up by an Uncle—when young he was very wild—his uncle sent him to the W. Indies with a Vessel and Cargo, which he spent—on his Return he married—his uncle observed to him on that occasion “that now ^when^ he wanted every thing he got himself a wife”6 he replied that now he did not want every ^thing^—his uncle asked him what it was that he did not want—he answered that now he did not want a wife— Dr. Franklin was told this by some of Morris’s Cotemporaries—

19 July 1783

Dr. Franklin says he was very well and long acquainted With Andw. Hamilton7 the Lawyer who distinguished himself on Zengers Tryal at New York. He was a Scotchman who came very young into Pensylvania, some said he came a Servant— Mr Brooke who in those Days was an old Man told Dr. Franklin that he had seen Hamilton who then lived at Lewis Town studying the Law in an Osnabrigs Shirt and Trowsers, that he observed him often, and that from his great application he predicted that he wd. one Day make a Figure in that Proffession— He was a man of exceeding good Talents & ready Elocution—

Wm. Allen8 then one of the most wealthy Men in Pensa. & afterwards Ch. Justice—married Hamilton’s Daughter— That Event gave Hamilton more Weight & Consideration—he practiced generously, & took no fees in the Cause of Zenger, the City of New York presented him with the Freedom of the City in a Gold Box with handsome Inscriptions—9

his He left a good Estate, made by laying out his Money as he acquired it in both Lotts & Lands wh. rose daily in Value—

His Son10 was afterwards Govr of Pennsylva.—sustained a good Character, had a decent share of Talents but not much improved

Sep. 1783

Dr. Franklin lived at Pha. in the Neighbourhood of Mr Boudinot the Father of Elias Boudinot11 the present Presidt. of Congress—the Father was a Silver Smith who had come from NYork to settle at Pha., a man much devoted to Whitfield,12 by whom his Son was baptized Elias after the Prophet of that Name— Dr. Franklin remembers Elias coming to his Father’s Door with half a Water Melon & a Spoon in his Hand—several of the neighboring Boys gathered round in hopes of sharing in the Melon— Elias observd their Intention, but told them as they came up, that those who asked shd recieve nothing, & went on eating his Melon—the others imagining he meant to Share with them, & fearing to ask lest they shd. as he threatned be refused, silently waited his Motions—he went on however eating his Melon, & finished it— He was 8 or nine Yrs. old— He had ^a^ Sister who was a sensible Girl—she wrote Verses & had Wit— Mr. Stockton of Prin[ce]ton married her—13 & took Elias into his Office & taught him Law, which he practiced at Eliz. Town until the War, with the Reputation of Integrity & fairness—

ap. 1784— Mr ^T.^ Walpole told me that David Hartley was the Son of an eminent Physician at Bath—

March 1784

Doctr Franklin, who has lived long & much with Quakers, tells me that he thinks the far greater part of them approve of defensive tho not of offensive War— In the Course of the War wh. ended in 1748— It was thought necessary to erect a Battery at Pha. & a Lottery was made to defray part of the Expence—at that Time the Doctr. was of a fire Company of thirty Members, twenty two of whom were Quakers—they had sixty pounds of public or Company Stock—and the Dr. proposed to lay it out in Lottery Tickets. it was their Custom in all Money Matters to give Notice or make the Motion a Week before its Determination—when the Dr. moved his Proposition Anthy Morris ^a Quaker member^ opposed it strenuously observing that the Friends cd. not apply Money to Purposes of War & that if the Dr. persisted in this motion, it wd. be the means of breaking up the Company—the Dr. observed that the Minority must be bound by the Majority, & as the greater part of the Co. were Quakers it wd. be in their power to decide as they pleased—

when the Day for the Determination came, Any Morris was the only Quaker who appd— The Doctr. observing that Circumstance pressed for the Vote. the Morris sd. he expected that other Members wd. soon come in, & begd that the Vote might be deferred for an Hour—Whieh ^While^ that matter was in agitation, the Waiter called him out, telling him that two Men below Stairs wanted to speake to him—he found they were two Quaker Members of the Company—they told him they came from six or seven others who were in a house next Door but one—they came to inquire whether he was strong enough to carry his Mo[tion]—if the ^not^ that on being sent for they wd. attend & vote with him—but they wishd. to avoid it if possible lest they shd. give offence to certain of the Friends who were more scrupulous on that Head—the Docr. returnd & agreed to Anthony Morris’s Request for another Hour—the Hour elapsed and not a single Quaker appd—the Question was then put & carried—14

While Govr. Thomas15 was Govr. of Pensylvania shortly after the taking of Louisbourgh by an armamt. from Boston, advices came to Pha. that the Garrison was in great want of Gun powder— Govr. Thomas communicated it to the Assembly & wanted them to afford Supplies—the Quaker Majority in the Assembly wd. not consent to supply any Guvr Gun Powder—but they granted three thousand pounds to be laid out in Flour Wheat or other Grain for the use of the Garrison— Govr. Thomas said that by other Grain was meant Gun powder—he laid the Money out accordingly & nothing was sd. about it—

March 1784

Doctr. Franklin told me that the Quaker Morris Family of Pha. are descended from Anthy Morris16 a Quaker who came here from England about the Beginning of this Century— It was said among the old People, that he was a natural Son of a Spanish Embassador in England— The Doctr says he always thought he looked a ^little^ like a Spaniard— He was an industrious money gathering Man, as well as a rigid Quaker— He once found a friend of his reading a large Book— What says he, art thee reading that Book? Why a man might earn forty Shillings in the Time necessary to read it thro’

Dr. Franklin says he knew the Father & Grandfather of W. Bingham17 the continental agent at Martinico—the Grandfather was a Sadler—the Father a Mercht

17 Ap. 1784 Mr Mc.Kennin one of the Council of antigua, told me that Valentine Morris18 Gov. of that Island told him, he had a Copy of Mr Bingham’s Letter Book— Mr Bingham was then a[t] Martinico—19

AD, NNC (EJ: 13317).

1Lewis Morris (1671–1746), chief justice of New York, 1715–33, and governor of New Jersey, 1738–46. For his son, Robert Hunter Morris, see note 3, below.

2The events alluded to transpired in April 1745, when the New Jersey Assembly replied to a critical and abusive message of Governor Morris. See “Papers of Lewis Morris, 1738–46,” New Jersey Historical Society, Collections 4 (1852), 237, 277–78; Eugene R. Sheridan, Lewis Morris, 1671–1746: A Study in Early American Politics (Syracuse, N.Y., 1981), 197–98; Thomas F. Gordon, The History of New Jersey (Trenton, 1834), 101–3. Joseph Cooper (1691–1749) was a member of the New Jersey Assembly. Michael C. Batinksi, The New Jersey Assembly, 1738–1775: The Making of a Legislative Community (Lanham, Md., 1987), 258; Franklin Autobiography description begins Leonard W. Labaree et al., eds., The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin (New Haven, 1964) description ends , 112–13.

3Robert Hunter Morris (c. 1700–64), chief justice of New Jersey and governor of Pennsylvania, 1754–56, was Lewis Morris’s second son. His conversation with BF is also reported in Franklin Autobiography description begins Leonard W. Labaree et al., eds., The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin (New Haven, 1964) description ends , 212–15.

4Samuel Rhoads (1711–84), a member of the Pennsylvania assembly, 1761–63 and 1770–74, delegate to the First Continental Congress, 1774, mayor of Philadelphia, 1774, and a Franklin associate in various civic and philanthropic activities.

5William Franklin, governor of New Jersey from 1763 to 1776.

6On 3 Nov. 1691 Lewis Morris married Isabella (1673–1752), daughter of James Graham, attorney-general of New York.

7Andrew Hamilton (c. 1676–1741) was probably born in Scotland. He began his legal career in Virginia in 1697, and then moved to Maryland, where he married Anne (Brown) Preeson, a wealthy widow, in 1706. While on business in London for the Penn family in 1713, he gained admission to Gray’s Inn, thus becoming a member of the English bar. He moved his practice to Philadelphia in late 1715 or early 1716, and soon became a prominent Philadelphia lawyer, most celebrated for his defense of John Peter Zenger, the New York printer, in 1735. Foster C. Nix, “Andrew Hamilton’s Early Years in the American Colonies,” WMQ description begins William and Mary Quarterly, 3rd series (1944–) description ends 21 (1964): 390–407.

8William Allen (1704–80) married Margaret (1709–60), daughter of Andrew Hamilton, in 1734.

9John Peter Zenger (1697–1746), whose New-York Weekly Journal aroused the wrath of the province’s royal officials. See Livingston Rutherfurd, John Peter Zenger: His Press, His Trial, and a Bibliography of Zenger Imprints; Also a Reprint of the First edition of the Trial (New York, 1904).

10James Hamilton (c. 1710–83), mayor of Philadelphia, 1745, lieutenant governor of Pennsylvania, 1748–54 and 1759–63, and acting governor, 1771–73, who played a neutralist role in the American Revolution.

11Elias Boudinot III (1706–70), the silversmith, was the father of Elias Boudinot IV (1740–1821), the commissary general of prisoners and president of Congress, 4 Nov. 1782–8 Nov. 1783.

12George Whitefield (1715–70), the noted evangelist.

13Annis Boudinot (1736–1801), poet, married Richard Stockton (1730–81), a signer of the Declaration of Independence, whose sister Hannah (1736–1808) married Elias Boudinot IV.

14For BF’s lottery project, see Pennsylvania Gazette, 10 and 22 Dec. 1747. The incident is also recounted in Franklin Autobiography description begins Leonard W. Labaree et al., eds., The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin (New Haven, 1964) description ends , 186–88.

15George Thomas (c. 1695–1774), who was involved in bitter quarrels with the Pennsylvania Assembly over appropriations for defense both at the time of the War of Jenkins’ Ear and again when France entered the war in 1744.

16Anthony Morris (1654–1721), a Quaker leader, emigrated from England to Burlington, West Jersey, in 1682, and three years later to Philadelphia. He served as mayor of Philadelphia in 1704. Robert C. Moon, The Morris Family of Philadelphia: Descendants of Anthony Morris, 1654–1721 (5 vols.; Philadelphia, 1898–1909), 1: 32–120

17William Bingham was the son of William Bingham and Mary Stamper Bingham. His paternal grandfather was James Bingham, a Philadelphia sadler who branched out into commerce, trading extensively in the West Indies. Alberts, Golden Voyage description begins Robert C. Alberts, The Golden Voyage: The Life and Times of William Bingham, 1752–1804 (Boston, 1969) description ends , 10, 11.

18William Mackinnen (1732–1809), a member of the Antigua Council, 1764–98, and considered a friend of America; Valentine Morris (d. 1789) named lieutenant governor of Antigua in 1772 and governor of St. Vincent, 1772–79. Vere L. Oliver, The History of the Island of Antigua, (3 vols.; London, 1849–99), 2: 226, 273.

19Verso are fragmentary JJ diary entries beginning 27 Mar.–19 Apr. 1784, for which see John Jay’s Notes Concerning William Carmichael, [27 Mar.–19 Apr. 1784], below.

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