John Jay Papers

Extract from John McKesson’s Notes of Debates, 1 July 1788

Extract from John McKesson’s Notes of Debates

[Poughkeepsie, 1 July 1788]

[JJ resumes his analysis of the taxation amendment, avowing he can see “no possible impropriety in the general government having access to all the resources of the country.”1]

Mr. Jay So much said & so well said2

Shall add a few Hints

The Mode Business is to consider the mode which will best secure their General Happiness & particular Happiness—

These Govts. should be so constructed as not to in[ter]fere with each other—

National Objects require national Resources—

Would it be proper the National Govt should depend on the particular States for National Resources—

I see no Objection to the Powers except the abuse that may be made of it—

I see no great Danger of that— The Power is well divided— The Representatives will have State attachm[en]ts & State Interest—

It is said direct Taxes should depend on requisition

Suppose A state should neglect or refuse— Suppose several of them should combine to refuse. Suppose ambitious men should at such Circumstance to their own Emolument—

What would be the Effect—

That There is a difficulty of apportioning direct Taxes—

direct Taxes may ^be^ specific— Ex gr.3 20/ on a Coach— 20/ on a Slave—a Tax on plate— These require no great Information— The difficulty is a direct Tax on all property— The States may in that Case have constantly a plan and instruct their members— The State must have a plan if they raise themselves— Let the State point out the Manner— It will be said Congress adopt the Mode—

Answer Tis the Money Congress wants— If the State pays the money Congress will probably agree to the Manner—

It has been said Congress may leave no resources for their Support— I am of Opinion that they have concurrent Jurisdiction—4

But there are Doubts— I may be cured by an explanatory Amendmt—

As to Excise—It intended to exempt your own productions from Excises

How distinguish your own manufactures from foreign— Will not all Rum be considered as American— Can you distinguish London Porter from American or a London Nail from an American

Will not this open a Door to frauds that cannot be prevented—

AD, NHi: McKesson notes (EJ: 13422); DHRC description begins John P. Kaminski, Gaspare J. Saladino, Richard Leffler, Charles H. Schoenleber, and Margaret A. Hogan, eds. Documentary History of the Ratification of the Constitution (28 vols. to date; Madison, Wis., 1976–) description ends , 22: 2046.

1. See Elliot, Debates description begins Jonathan Elliot, ed., The Debates in the Several State Conventions, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, as recommended by the General Convention at Philadelphia, in 1787. Together with the Journal of the Federal Convention, Luther Martin’s Letter, Yates’s Minutes, Congressional Opinions, Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions of ’98–’99, and other Illustrations of the Constitution. (2nd ed., 5 vols.; Washington, D.C., 1836–45) description ends , 125–26, 380–81. For the full debates for 1 July, see DHRC description begins John P. Kaminski, Gaspare J. Saladino, Richard Leffler, Charles H. Schoenleber, and Margaret A. Hogan, eds. Documentary History of the Ratification of the Constitution (28 vols. to date; Madison, Wis., 1976–) description ends , 22: 2031–58.

2. Hereafter, paragraph formatting is standardized.

3. An abbreviation of the Latin expression “exempli gratia,” equivalent to “e.g.,” and meaning “for example.”

4. The Daily Advertiser (New York) of 8 July 1788 reported the following, regarding JJ’s role in the debates of 1 July: “After him [James Duane], Mr. Jay rose, who applauded Mr. Duane’s speech in very high terms; and observed, that as every thing had been urged, which was pertinent to the occasion, he should only give his opinion in favor of the paragraph without any amendment; and he explained the idea of concurrent jurisdiction, by which the state governments are to be supported, in a very clear and able manner. DHRC description begins John P. Kaminski, Gaspare J. Saladino, Richard Leffler, Charles H. Schoenleber, and Margaret A. Hogan, eds. Documentary History of the Ratification of the Constitution (28 vols. to date; Madison, Wis., 1976–) description ends , 22: 2046–47.

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    Jay Papers
    Title
    Extract from John McKesson’s Notes of Debates, 1 July 1788
    Author
    Jay, John
    Date
    1 July 1788

    Reference

    Cite as
    “Extract from John McKesson’s Notes of Debates, 1 July 1788,” Founders Online, National Archives, https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jay/01-05-02-0013. [Original source: The Selected Papers of John Jay, vol. 5, 1788–1794, ed. Elizabeth M. Nuxoll. Charlottesville: University of Virginia Press, 2017, pp. 27–28.]