John Jay Papers
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From John Jay to Edmund Randolph, 6–8 July 1794

To Edmund Randolph

London 6th.[–8] July 1794

Sir

The Letters which since my arrival I have had the Honor of writing to you, are as follows.— 9th. June at Falmouth,1 left with our Consul2 there to transmit by the Active Captn. Blair for Phila.—3 & the 23d: June4 by Mr. Francis, of which I also sent a Duplicate by the Mohawk. Captn. Allan to New York,5 & 26 June by the same—6

On the 27th. June I had a conference with Lord Grenville, in the course of which all the Topics of Difference between the two Nations were touch’d.— This Conference I considered as intended for more particular discussions: It amounted ^however^ only to a friendly and informal conversation on these subjects:— He appeared to be liberal, candid & temperate, but did not commit himself or say any thing decisive on any point.— He observ’d that He wish’d first to be inform’d of the Extent of our Views and Objects, and that a consultation with the rest of the Kings Ministers would be necessary to enable him to be more explicit.—7 This appear’d to me to be perfectly fair and proper.

In conversing on the subject of Captures and Spoliations I was surpris’d that not a single case under the instructions of November had been laid before him—8 He requested me to furnish him with some of the strongest of those cases; and remarked that an accurate knowledge of facts should precede any measures on that Head:— He said very frankly that there might be such a state of things as to render the interposition of Government proper and necessary to satisfy Justice; and that He, was desirous of having such exact information as would enable Him to judge whether & how far the Captures in question were under that Predicament.9

On applying to Mr. Pinckney I learned that no such cases had been transmitted to him from America.

Mr. Crafts, a Gentleman from Boston, has furnished me with the case of the Charlotte decided at Antigua & from which decision an appeal was made.— it unfortunately happens that this is not among the strongest of those cases.—Mr. Crafts took the Opinion of Council on the subject. That Opinion is as follows.

The Charlotte—Coffin.
appeal from Antigua

Dr. Nicholl is requested to peruse the Proceedings and evidence contained in the process herewith left and advise whether it is expedient for the Claimants to prosecute this Appeal:—

“I have perus’d the proceedings and evidence contain’d in the process transmitted, by which it appears that the Cargo of this Ship being the Produce of the French West India Colonies, and coming directly from thence to France was consider’d as liable to confiscation, although it should be the property of Americans.

In the war before the last Great Britain condemn’d Neutral Vessells and their cargoes trading to the French Islands, upon the Ground that the trade was not permitted in times of peace and that the Permission was given by the French during the distress of War, as an expedient to protect their Property against British Captors: which occasional protection neutral nations were held to have no right to afford them.10 In the last war, neutral Vessells trading to the French Islands: were not condemn’d but the former principle was not thereby considered to be abandon’d, inasmuch as the French had open’d their Colonial Ports before the commencement of Hostilities.— No such Step (as far as I am inform’d) was taken by the French previous to the present Hostilities: And as the Americans and other Neutrals were not permitted before the War to purchase the produce of the French Islands and carry it in their own Vessells from thence to France, and as the Instructions of the 8th. January 1794 (revoking those of the 6th. November 1793) still direct the Siezure of “all Vessells with their Cargoes; that are loaden with goods the produce of the French West India Islands, and coming directly from any part of the Said Islands, to any Port in Europe” [I] should apprehend that the sentence of condemnation [will] be affirmed.11 However, it being understood that a negotiation between Great Britain & America is now pending, in which it is probable that the legality of this Trade will undergo some discussion and settlement, it will at all events be expedient on the part of the Appellant, so far to proceed, as to preserve his right of bringing the sentence to a revision; more especially as no decision upon the point has yet taken place by the Lords of Appeal: but the Expediency of finally bringing the Cause to a hearing may depend upon the result of the pending negotiation or upon some decision to be given by the Appellant Court.

J. Nicholl12

[“]2d. July 1794”

The list of Captures with which I was furnished does not state the Principles or Pretexts on which the [con]demnations mention’d in it were grounded, & consequently is of little use on the present Occasion.— The Case of Marston Watson, which I rec’d from you before my departure, is a very strong one; but then it asserts only the Expectation, but not the certainty of condemnation.13

No Dispatches from Mr. Higginson (of whose instructions I have a Copy) have as yet reach’d me:— Those instructions are in my Opinion well devised, and if as well executed, will furnish me with all the Information which it seems has become so requisite.14

On the 3d. of this Month, I was in the usual form presented to the King, & the next day to the Queen.15 The reception I receiv’d from them both was affable & satisfactory; and perfectly calculated to create an opinion of the good will of this Government to the United States: The King seem’d to be well prepar’d for the occasion: He express’d his confidence in the assurances I gave him of the disposition of the United States to cultivate Peace and Harmony:— He intimated (but without any direct application) that it was expedient for all Nations who respected Order, good Government, morality and Religion, to be Friends:— on this topic He expressed many general sentiments that were liberal & proper:— How far these appearances will correspond with future Facts, Time only can decide:— they certainty afford some, tho’ not conclusive Evidence of a friendly disposition.

By the Arrival of the William Penn, your late correspondence with Mr. Hammond became known to the public.— what impression it has made on the Government here, I have not as yet been able to judge.16

In the conduct of this Negotiation, I shall proceed with as much Expedition as Prudence will permit: It appears to me expedient to be guided by Occasions & circumstances, and to give every conciliatory application a fair Experiment:— Conceiving it to be adviseable to afford the Minister an opportunity of increasing the Evidence of a friendly disposition, I prepared a Letter to him, which after having well considered I sent to him the next day:— it is in these words, viz.

Pall Mall, Royal Hotel, 3d: July 1794

My Lord,

Such various and important affairs must necessarily demand and employ your Time & Attention, that I really feel a Reluctance to add to their number— and yet, circumstanced as I am, & circumstanced as my Country is, I find myself irresistably impelled to submit to your Lordship’s Consideration, the expediency of my being authorized to convey to the President (by the Vessels which sail next week) such assurances as may tend to compose his, and the public mind in America.

I can find but few authenticated Cases of the Captures in Question, which have as yet arrived here, and they shall speedily be laid before your Lordship.— would it not for the present consist with your Ideas on that subject to say, that if those Captures, on being investigated, should appear to be of such Extent and Magnitude, as to merit the Attention & Interposition of Government, that then &c. &c.

Would it not also be right and proper to open the Door for appeals: and to instruct his Majestys Officers in America to promote by their conduct, that Friendship & mutual good will, which the Governments of both Countries desire to establish & perpetuate:— Delay is often hazardous:— pardon my anxiety lest new difficulties should arise:— to prevent, is generally more easy than to remedy.17

I cannot conclude this Letter without expressing to your Lordship how sensibly I feel and am gratified by the friendly disposition of his Majesty towards the United States, manifested by the very gracious reception with which I have been honored by their Majesties, and the magnanimity of the Sentiments which the King condescended to express on the Occasion.

It is my Duty, and I shall perform it with the most cordial satisfaction, to make known to the President these pleasing circumstances:18 they perfectly harmonize with the liberality & candour, and with the obliging attentions I have experience’d from your Lordship: & if these representations should be accompanied with correspondent official assurances, a promising foundation would be laid for the Establishment & Duration of that Friendship and Cordiality between our Two Countries, which I pray God may speedily take place, & become perpetual.19 With very Sincere Respect & Esteem I have the Honor to be my Lord Your Lordship’s &c &c &c

J.J.

P.S As yet, I have recd. no official Letters by the late arrivals from America.20 The Right Honble. Lord Grenville one of his Majesty’s principal secretaries of State &c &c &c

To this letter I have not as yet receivd an Answer.21 nor did I expect one so early.— You will readily perceive that before it can be answer’d, the Administration will probably think it necessary to decide on their line of Conduct towards our Country.— whatever the Answer may be, it will unavoidably contain indications, either of Evasions or Suspence, or Irritation, or fair & liberal Conduct:— what the complexion will be, I cannot predict: as yet I have every reason to be satisfied, & it is but just and right that I should say it without Reserve.

I shall persevere in my Endeavors to acquire the Confidence & Esteem of the Government, not by improper Compliances, but by that Sincerity, Candor, Truth & Prudence, which in my opinion will always prove to be more wise & more effectual than Finesse & Chicane.

Formal discussions of disputed points should in my Judgement be postponed untill the case becomes desperate.— my present object is to accommodate rather than to convict or convince:— Men who sign their names to agreements seldom retract.

If however, my present plan should fail, and I am far from being certain that it will not, I shall then prepare and present such formal, & at the same time such temperate & firm Representations as may be necessary to place the Claims & Conduct of the two Governments in their proper points of View

On the 5th. July I receiv’d the following letter from Mr. Henry Waddell viz

July 5th. 1794.

Sir,

By the advice of Thos. Pinckney Esqr. I have called upon you to state the particulars of the capture & detention of the American Ship Amsterdam Packet, but not having the Honor of a personal interview permit me to do it in this way.

The American Ship Amsterdam Packet (Henry Waddell master) of New York, owned by Messrs. Dan[ie]l. Ludlow & Co., laden with Sugar, Cotton, Coffee, Pot & Pearl ashes, Oil & Tobacco, left said Port on the 28th. of Octr. last, bound for the port of Havre de Grace. But on the 29th. Novr. following, was forcibly taken by the Privateer Princess Elizabeth Cutter, & carried into Liverpool, where the Vessel as well as Cargo are still detained, without any other reason assign’d, than that the Captors say they are indemnified by the Order of the 6th. November, (which no doubt you ^are^ acquainted with) & for which she must wait the adjudication. It is now seven months since the Vessel was taken, & if we have to wait our turn for the adjudication of the Admiralty court, it will be Three or Four months more, before we can hope for a Releasement.—

Any services render’d by you will be thankfully acknowledg’d by Sir &c &c &c

Henry Waddell

Hone. John Jay Esqr. Envoy Extra: &c &c22

I immediately sent that ^it^ to Lord Grenville enclos’d in the following Letter. viz

Pall Mall July 5th. 1794

My Lord

I am persuaded your Sensibility will be hurt by the Delay mention’d in the enclos’d Letter to me from Mr. Waddell— the impressions which it must naturally make, even on the most liberal minds, are to be regretted.— It will be sensibly felt by the owner, whose nearest connexions have, to my knowledge, done and suffer’d much from their attachment to this Country.

I forbear to add any thing, except very sincere assurances of the Respect and Esteem with which I have the Honor to be &c &c &c

JJ

The Right Honble. Lord Grenville &c &c &c.23

This Letter needs no comment, it will probably lead the Minister to observe, that all Descriptions of Persons among us are affected by the injuries of which we complain, and will naturally participate in the Resentments which those injuries cannot fail to excite— it is for the sake of this Idea, that I mention this Transaction: which in other respects may not be deem’d of sufficient importance to find a place in this Letter.

I have seen many respectable & influential characters here, and from their sentiments & conversation there certainly is reason to believe, that War with us would be an unpopular measure; provided nothing should occur, to fix the imputation of aggression on us.

In a late conversation with certain persons attached to the administration, and of weight in that Scale, the general Conduct of our Government receiv’d the most unreserved approbation, and the Character of the President was spoken of in terms of the highest respect.24

I have not heard that Carltons Speech25 or Simcoe’s Interference were defended by anybody, as yet I have neither heard or seen anything that looks like a hostile Disposition in the mass of this Nation towards ours, but the contrary.26

What designs may be or have been in the Cabinet is another matter:— information of that kind is not readily acquir’d, but I shall not be inattentive to it. Men are prone to suspect, sometimes too much and sometimes too little:—and to avoid both Extremes is more proper than it is easy.

On the Subject of the Affairs committed to me I have nothing further to add at present.

I have receiv’d a Letter from Mr. Bourne, which, together with my answer to it, should, I think be communicated to you.— they are as follows, viz.

Amsterdam June 27th. 1794

Sir,

I am made happy by the opportunity of tendering to you my congratulations on your safe arrival in Europe which I beg you to accept of, accompanied with my Cordial Wishes for the success of your mission, as involving the most important interests of our Country.

I am sorry to observe that the conduct of this Government of late (tho perhaps more equivocal than that which has been pursued by G. Britain) must operate very serious injury to the Commerce of America.— In the face of express stipulation of Treaty, they have prohibited us from taking away nearly all the Articles for which we have a demand, & many others unless on condition of giving heavy Bonds that they shall be landed in America, or rather not in France:— in short such are the troubles & vexations which burthen our intercourse with them, that our Vessells are generally oblig’d to depart in Ballast.

We have no Friend or Assistant here, cloth’d with public Authority, to whom we can resort for advice or protection on the points elluded to, but should it be within the Latitude of your powers to remonstrate, I doubt not, the Issue would be favorable.

Persuaded that you will not ask an apology for what has been prompted by a sense of duty to my Country, I forbear to make one for the trouble I give you by this communication, and pray you to be assur’d of those sentiments of profound Respect & Esteem, with which I have the Honor to be &c &c &c

S: Bourne

Hone. John Jay Esqr. &c &c &c27

London 5th. July 1794

Sir

I have been favor’d with yours of the 27th. of last Month, accept my thanks for the friendly congratulations contained in it.

That the President may be inform’d of the Facts you mention, I shall take the liberty of transmitting an Extract from ^copy of^ your letter to the Secretary of State.

Not being within the limits of my Commission I cannot with Propriety interfere by making any representations on these Subjects.

With the best wishes for your Health & Happiness I am Sir &c &c &c

J.J.

Sylvanus Bourne Esqr Amsterdam28

8 July 1794. Nothing new has occurred since the aforegoing Letter was written— I have the Honor to be with great Respect Sir Your most obt. & h’ble Servt

John Jay29

The Honb. Edm. Randolph Esqr. Secretary of State &c.—30

LS, DNA:Jay Despatches, 1794–95 (EJ: 04274); C, NHi: King (EJ: 04416).

1JJ to ER, 9 June, C, DNA: Jay Despatches, 1794–95 (EJ: 04268), and C, NHi: King (EJ: 04413).

2Robert Were Fox.

3The Active, Captain Blair, arrived in Philadelphia on 15 Aug. after a 44-day voyage from Falmouth. Philadelphia Gazette, 16 Aug. 1794.

5The sloop Mohawk, Captain Allen, arrived in New York on 27 Aug. following a 56-day passage from London. Daily Advertiser (New York), 27 Aug; Philadelphia Gazette, 28 Aug. 1794.

6JJ to ER, 26 June 1794, ALS, DNA: Jay Despatches, 1794–95 (EJ: 04273), and C, NHi: King (EJ: 04415).

7For the influence exercised by other cabinet ministers on the negotiations, see JJ’s Project for a Treaty with Great Britain, 30 Sept., and the editorial note “Negotiating the Jay Treaty,” both below. On the reorganization of the cabinet, then in progress, see JJ to GW, 21 July 1794, below.

8For an explanation as to why this information had not reached Britain, see ER to JJ, 20 Sept. 1794, LS, DNA: Jay Despatches (EJ: 04324); C, NHi: King (EJ: 04455); and ASP: FR, 1: 497.

9For Grenville’s response to JJ’s representations about captures and impressment, see JJ to Grenville, 30 July 1794, and the editorial note “Negotiating the Jay Treaty,” both below.

10On Britain’s “Rule of 1756,” see JJSP description begins Elizabeth M. Nuxoll et al., eds., The Selected Papers of John Jay (6 vols. to date; Charlottesville, Va., 2010–) description ends , 5: 610, 617n4.

11On the Orders in Council of 6 Nov. 1793 and 8 Jan. 1794, see the editorial note “The Jay Treaty: Appointment and Instructions,” JJSP description begins Elizabeth M. Nuxoll et al., eds., The Selected Papers of John Jay (6 vols. to date; Charlottesville, Va., 2010–) description ends , 5: 609–21. On the desperate need in France for grain, see PAJ to PJM, 22 June 1794, above.

12As instructed by ER, JJ had hired Nicholl to advise him on the prize cases. See ER to JJ, 6 May 1794, JJSP description begins Elizabeth M. Nuxoll et al., eds., The Selected Papers of John Jay (6 vols. to date; Charlottesville, Va., 2010–) description ends , 5: 645n17.

13On this list, not found, see ER to JJ, 6 May 1794, JJSP description begins Elizabeth M. Nuxoll et al., eds., The Selected Papers of John Jay (6 vols. to date; Charlottesville, Va., 2010–) description ends , 5: 637, 644n9. On the list subsequently provided by ER, which JJ presented to Grenville on 28 July, see JJ to Grenville, 30 July 1794, below. ER enclosed a short statement (not found) on the case of Marston Watson in ER to JJ, 20 Sept. 1794, cited in note 19, below.

14On Higginson, see the editorial note “Negotiating the Jay Treaty,” below.

15For the letters of credence to the king and queen, see ER to JJ, 6 May 1794, JJSP description begins Elizabeth M. Nuxoll et al., eds., The Selected Papers of John Jay (6 vols. to date; Charlottesville, Va., 2010–) description ends , 5: 642, 647n49.

16The William Penn brought ER’s letters to JJ of 27 May 1794 [C, DNA: Jay Despatches, 1794–95 (EJ: 04263); C, NHi: King (EJ: 04408); C, NNC (EJ: 07069); and C, partially encoded, NNC (EJ: 08632)], in which ER transmitted more information on spoliations and commented on a sharp exchange with Hammond, whose conduct he described as that of a minister foreseeing the outbreak of war between the United States and England; and of 28 May 1794 [C, NHi:Jay (EJ: 00622); C, NHi: King (EJ: 04409); and C, DNA: Jay Despatches, 1794–95 (EJ: 04264)], covering a list and a box of documents on spoliations. The ship’s captain did not, however, discover these materials until 14 July, when he delivered them to JJ. In his letter of 16 July, JJ remarked that, while some of the papers were not useful, he was glad to have the cases and would present them to Grenville when the opportunity arose. See JJ to ER, 16 July, ALS, DNA: Jay Despatches, 1794–95 (EJ: 04279); C, NHi: King (EJ: 04426); and ASP: FR, 1: 479–80. In his letter of 8 June, ER notified JJ that he would be receiving more documentation on spoliations by the Atlantic. See LS, DNA: Jay Despatches, 1794–95 (EJ: 04266); C, NHi: Jay (EJ: 00603); C, NHi: King (EJ: 04411); and ASP: FR, 1: 475. Also on board were the letters of ER to Hammond, 20 May, and Hammond to ER, 22 May, debating the hostile actions perpetrated by each side against the other; and ER to JJ, 29 May 1794, C, NHi: Jay (EJ: 00629); NHi: King (EJ: 04410); and DNA: Jay Despatches, 1794–95 (EJ: 04265), covering documentation related to Hammond’s complaints, and to Maryland’s claim to stock in the Bank of England; ASP: FR, 1: 461–63, and 474–75; and PGW: PS description begins Dorothy Twohig et al., eds., The Papers of George Washington, Presidential Series (19 vols. to date; Charlottesville, Va., 1987–) description ends , 16: 105–7, 190, 409–11.

17On the procedural irregularities that characterized the proceedings of the admiralty courts that condemned American vessels in the West Indies and prolonged a final settlement of the cases, see Fewster, “British Ship Seizures,” description begins Joseph M. Fewster, “The Jay Treaty and British Ship Seizures: The Martinique Cases,” WMQ 45 (July 1988): 426–52 description ends 426–52.

18See JJ to GW, 21 July 1794, below.

19For GW’s approval of this letter, see ER to JJ, 20 Sept. 1794, ALS, DNA: Jay Despatches, 1794–95 (EJ: 04324); LbkC, NHi: King (EJ: 04455); ASP: FR, 1: 497.

20See JJ to Grenville, 3 July 1794, ALS, UK-KeNA: FO 95/512 (EJ: 04977); C, unknown repository, formerly PRO (EJ: 03988); NHi: King (EJ: 04417); DNA: Jay Despatches, 1794–95 (EJ: 04361).

21No response has been found.

22Henry Waddell to JJ, 5 July 1794, C, DNA: Jay Despatches, 1794–95 (EJ: 04360), and LbkC, NHi: King (EJ: 04418).

23JJ to Grenville, 5 July 1794, C, DNA: Jay Despatches, 1794–95 (EJ: 04359); C, unknown repository, formerly PRO (EJ: 03989); LbkC, NHi: King (EJ: 04419).

24This paragraph was closely paraphrased in an unsigned article that appeared in the Philadelphia Gazette of 20 Sept. 1794, the same date on which ER acknowledged receipt of this letter, on which, see note 29, below. For quotations from other correspondence from JJ in this piece, see JJ to GW (private), 23 June, above, and JJ to ER, 12 July 1794, below.

25In his speech in February 1794, to a delegation from western Indian tribes, Dorchester had informed the Indians that Americans had no interest in peace and would soon be at war with Britain, thus enabling Britain and the Indians to fix a boundary line to their mutual satisfaction. Simcoe had anticipated that the United States would attempt to seize the frontier posts and was actively preparing for war. See Bemis, Jay’s Treaty description begins Samuel Flagg Bemis, Jay’s Treaty: A Study in Commerce and Diplomacy (New Haven and London, 1962) description ends , 229–33, 239–40.

26For his report on an informal discussion of Simcoe with Grenville, see JJ to ER, 12 July 1794, below. For his view that Dorchester and Simcoe believed there would be war with the United States, see JJ to GW, 21 July 1794, below.

27Sylvanus Bourne to JJ, 27 June 1794, C, DNA:Jay Despatches, 1794–95 (EJ: 04362), and LbkC, NHi: King (EJ: 04420).

28JJ to Bourne, 5 July 1794, C, DNA: Jay Despatches, 1794–95 (EJ: 04062), and LbkC, NHi: King (EJ: 04421).

29For his response to the above letter, see ER to JJ, 20 Sept. 1794, cited in note 19, above. In an earlier letter, ER noted that he had already received JJ’s letter of 9 July [ALS, DNA: Jay Despatches, 1794–95 (EJ: 04275); C, NHi: King (EJ: 04423)], in which JJ had mentioned having sent “a long and particular letter” of 6 July. ER then speculated that this letter might have been brought by the Portuguese minister, said to have arrived at New York from London, on 15 Sept. See ER to JJ, 17 Sept., ALS, DNA: Jay Despatches, 1794–95 (EJ: 04323); and C, NHi: King (EJ: 04453).

30The last paragraph, closing, signature, and ER’s name and title are in JJ’s hand.

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