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Extracts from Gilbert Livingston’s Notes of Debates, 24 July 1788

Extracts of Gilbert Livingston’s Notes of Debates

[[Poughkeepsie,] Thursday— July 24th 1788]

Jay— Most ardently wishes & hopes the business might be so carried thro’—it is no more a paper—but it is a government— let us be Unanimous in pursuing the Object—to get a convention—to reconsider the constitution thinks Gent[lemen]. are at liberty to consider the circumstances that we are in—

he himself wishes some amendments as well as others— wishes we may go hand in hand—to obtain them—1

Jay— feels great regret in this case was in hopes to have gone in unity—

this is giving with one hand and taking back with the other— two clauses contradictory one comes in—the other provides to come out— will we at 4 Years end—be easier to be out than now— can we get this condn. without the Co-opperation of our sister states they as important as we—as jealous as we— is their not if we join 6 [of] the most important states are for a convention— nothing can possibly prevent a convention— it displays distrust—& is a condition a reservation— will not the 10 states say we have come in without reservation— Why should N. Y.— it will remove congress—consequences among ourselves— one side will be pleased—because they have carried all their amendments— the other because we have adopted such measures as will bring us into the union—

all pleased because we have the highest possible prospect of a convention for Amendments— we are now one people all pledged for amends

we on opposite sides—have formerly agreed Many I see here have formerly been with me in forming another constitution …

Jay— wishes Gent[lemen]. would seriously consider— not out [of] humor—yet distressed—high hopes before—now distressed by this thread to be divided— they will go with Gent[lemen]. on this Principle, that the cons[titutio]n is adopted had once higher hopes of it than he now has it was tried in Virginia— believe in his conscience it would keep us out of the union— we cannot remain out of the Union— unpleasant—to have another convention do the work we are here come to do—wishes to postpone till tomorrow …

Jay— Gent[leman] right—but what ought we to do should We keep out of the Union? no he does not wish this— we think this would do it— we come in with them in every thing but a rejection—& that they themselves do not want—2

Jay— wishes something may take place to bring us to gether— some express reservation of state rights—which would satisfie us all—…

Jay— has no particular plan— wishes to do any thing possible— would wish to meet some Gent[lemen]— Who wanted to have the Bill of rights better guarded— Men—ought not to be influenced by a threat—if they act properly—they will not—…

Jay— takes the Gent[leman]. on his own ground— let us ask them— but not put it in before we ask them …

Jay— 5 other states want amend[ment]s as well as we— they will trust us—but we will not trust them— this looks like a threat—

this qustn. reduces it to this point—willought they to receive us, on terms which none of the other states have thought of, & is it right in us to ask it—dont they love liberty &ca. as well as we—

AD, NN: Gilbert Livingston notes (EJ: 13430); DHRC description begins John P. Kaminski, Gaspare J. Saladino, Richard Leffler, Charles H. Schoenleber, and Margaret A. Hogan, eds. Documentary History of the Ratification of the Constitution (28 vols. to date; Madison, Wis., 1976–) description ends , 23: 2289, 2290–91, 2292, 2295, 2296.

1JJ’s remarks followed the debate on the proposed Bill of Rights and recommendatory amendments.

2At this point, remarks were made by Adgate, AH, Lansing, Wynkoop, and Tredwell, after which the question was put on Lansing’s new motion for conditional ratification, leaving New York free to secede if no convention were called, which was defeated. RRL then suggested that the planned circular letter would prompt the calling of a convention, while Adgate and AH crossed swords over the operative effect of a treaty on those states not joining the Union. See also Daily Advertiser (New York), 28 July 1788; DHRC description begins John P. Kaminski, Gaspare J. Saladino, Richard Leffler, Charles H. Schoenleber, and Margaret A. Hogan, eds. Documentary History of the Ratification of the Constitution (28 vols. to date; Madison, Wis., 1976–) description ends , 3: 2297–98. For the complete debates and procedures for 24 July, see DHRC description begins John P. Kaminski, Gaspare J. Saladino, Richard Leffler, Charles H. Schoenleber, and Margaret A. Hogan, eds. Documentary History of the Ratification of the Constitution (28 vols. to date; Madison, Wis., 1976–) description ends , 23: 2288–97.

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