Extract from Melancton Smith’s Notes of Debates, 14 July 1788
Extract from Melancton Smith’s Notes of Debates
[Poughkeepsie, 14 July 1788]
[Melancton Smith moved to amend John Jay’s motion for ratification to have the Constitution ratified on condition that a convention be called to recommend amendments and until then limiting the service of militia outside the state, and barring Congress from regulating the time, place, and manner of elections, or levying excise taxes on American products, except liquors, or direct taxes without prior requisitions upon the state.1 Jay rejoined: “The conditions will amount to a rejection,” while urging accommodation. During the debates of 14–15 July, JJ continued to insist that Congress had no power to adopt amendments and, on the basis of an agency theory of the federal government, that amendments could only be proposed “to the People, not to their Servants.” Jay pledged his support of the list of amendments Hamilton proposed on behalf of the Federalists2 and suggested that the Antifederalists’ amendments be “pared down” with a view to agreement.]
Mr. Jay. Wishes us to candidly consider—
We cannot presume we were sent here to make a Constitution—
If we were, every State had the same power, and therefore no Const[itution]—could be made— therefore it is presumed, they meant we should determine upon the whole we should whether best to adopt—
have a right to propose amendts to the People of the US. But we have cannot propose it to the Agents of the people—
we may propose to the people not to their Servants—
The Conditions are to be offered to the Servants not to the Masters— Must ask an attorney for his powers—
Expect the attorney to do more, than they are authorized to do—
They may not [have] a right to agree to forbear with respect to a new State—
They might agree to forbear with respect to one of their own members—
But cannot admit upon any other terms than signing the Compact—
If he saw probability he would agree—
Wishes to say neither part is victors—
A Man [in] England Two farms, once all wood, one none— he empowers an attorney to sell the wood provides he gives, a right to cut wood—the other proposes.—3
AD, N: Melancton Smith’s notes; , 23: 2169.
1. , 15 July, 43–44; , 23: 2177–78.
2. The amendments adopted by a Federalist committee or caucus and introduced by AH on 15 July (AD in hand of AH, NHi: McKesson; , 5: 167–70), included the following proposals:
- 1. One representative for every 30,000, with a maximum of 200. Thereafter continued or increased, but not diminished, according to such ratio as Congress shall fix.
- 2. A court for trial of impeachments shall consist of the Senate, justices of the U.S. Supreme Court, and several judges of the highest court of each state.
- 3. Vacancies in the Senate are to be filled by the state legislatures, not the governor.
- 4. No alteration for compensation for senators and representatives shall go into effect until after a subsequent election.
- 5. No appropriation for the arming in time of peace shall be made without concurrence of two-thirds of the representatives and senators present.
- 6. The “Executive” shall not take command of the army in the field save at the desire of Congress.
- 7. Each state is to provide for its own militia save when provision has been made for that purpose by Congress.
- 8. The Journal of Congress is to be published at least once a year except for such portions relating to treaties and military operations as either house shall consider secret.
- 9. Judicial power of the U.S. shall not extend to land controversies unless relating to claims of territory or jurisdiction between states, or between claims of land, between individuals or between states, or between states and individuals under the grants of different states.
- 10. No judge of the Supreme Court shall hold any other office under the United States “or any of them.”
- 11. When the number of persons in the district to be laid out at the seat of the government of the United States shall amount to ; such district shall cease to be a parcel of the state granting the same and provision shall be made by Congress for district representatives in that body.
- 12. Representatives, senators, presidents, and U.S. judges shall each take an oath or affirmation not to infringe or violate the respective state constitutions.
- 13. No capitation tax shall ever be laid by Congress.
On these amendments, see also , 44–48; , 23: 2207–8.
3. In Gilbert Livingston’s notes for this date, AD, NN: Gilbert Livingston (EJ: 13430), JJ is quoted as arguing “He must reserve the absolute right—& not be oblidged to ask what trees to cut—” and “insists he must have an absolute right & not a Modified priviledge— JJ “suggests the latter Questn. postpones the former—both propositions mean an adoption—”. , 23: 2169, 2170, 2173. For the complete notes of debates for this date, in which JJ, AH, and Richard Harison were the principle speakers, see , 23: 2169–74.