Extracts from Gilbert Livingston’s Notes of Debates, 19 July 1788
Extracts from Gilbert Livingston’s Notes of Debates
[[Poughkeepsie,] Saturday 19th July 1788]
[A committee discusses the draft of Melancton Smith’s conditional ratification proposal that included a bill of rights and other proposed amendments.1 JJ regarded Smith’s proposal limiting Congress’s exercise of certain powers until a convention was held to consider amendments as “less evil than the former” and as providing a basis to proceed. On the 19th, entering the debate on the bill of rights, JJ asked why all the unalienable rights are not mentioned as well as the few singled out. “If there was any necessity,” JJ would support a bill of rights. He later opposed extending exemption from military service to conscientious objectors other than Quakers; sought clarification of the kinds of cases requiring trial by jury; and proposed an additional recommendatory amendment limiting office holding to freeholders].
Jay, why not insert all the unallianible rights & these three selected …
Jay— if there was any necessity to mention them or have a Bill of rights at all—he would do it. …
Jay— Govt. must have power to restrain—as the clause stands it is so inaccurate, he cannot vote for it—2 if the committee will agree to amend it he will agree
the question put on the sentiment, or principle of the first article— Unanimous—…
Jay— you cannot make a right—you can only declare what a right is—…
Jay— the word “accustomed” will not take the objectn. away—because in admiralty cases an appeal should lay—where the whole matter should go up—…3
Jay— if it means Quakers—is content—but if it will comprehend every person who in time of War will declare they are con[s]c[i]entious about it—he will not—…
Jay— wishes it to go farther—if recommendatory & would have a freeholder elected—4
AD, NN: Gilbert Livingston’s notes (EJ: 13430); , 23: 2243, 2244, 2245, 2247. For the complete notes of debates for 19 July, see , 23: 2233–52.
1. On 19 July the convention considered Lansing’s “Draft of a Ratification and Amendments,” divided into explanatory, conditional, and recommendatory amendments. A Declaration of Rights, which was prefixed to the amendments, comprised in turn conditional and explanatory amendments. They were taken up seriatim. For the proposed amendments, see , 49–58; , 23: 2234–42.
2. Under discussion is the first clause of the proposed bill of rights which asserted: “That all power is originally vested in, and consequently derived from the people; and that government is instituted by them for their common interest, protection and security: That the enjoyment of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, are essential rights, which every government ought to respect and preserve.” , 23: 2234.
3. Under discussion are the kinds of cases that require trial by jury. , 23: 2245.
4. JJ proposed limiting office holding to freeholders. Commenting on the New York State constitution’s restriction of suffrage to freeholders, William Jay linked such limitations to “a favorite maxim with Mr. Jay, that those who own the country ought to govern it.” , 1: 70. No other references to JJ’s use of that maxim have been found.