John Jay Papers
Documents filtered by: Period="Revolutionary War" AND Date="1780-09-03"
sorted by: date (ascending)
Permanent link for this document:
https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jay/01-02-02-0097

Account of John Jay’s Conferences with Diego de Gardoqui and Bernardo del Campo, 3–4 September 1780

Account of John Jay’s Conferences with Diego de Gardoqui
and Bernardo del Campo

[3 and 4 September 1780]1

Mr. Gardoqui began the conversation by assurances of his personal attachment to our Cause and Country, which gave occasion to mutual, and complimentary Professions too unimportant to repeat. I told him that the Holders of the Bills, after having shewn me great forbearance and delicacy, were at length perfectly tired That the House of Casa Mayor had sent their Bills after me,2 but that as I was not to expect the Honor of a Conference with the Minister until Tuesday Evening at soonest, I had requested time ’till Wednesday to give my Answer— I therefore begged the favor of him to mention this to the Minister, and obtain his directions what I should do. He asked to what Amount Congress had resolved to draw for— I told him— He observed that the Court ought previously to have been applied to— In answer to which I recapitulated the Reasons before given to the Minister—3 He dwelt largely on the necessities of the State, and I expatiated on the extensive Ideas entertained of Spanish Opulence in America. He assured me they were mistaken, and spoke of the difficulties occasioned by the detention of their Treasures abroad. He then remarked that we offered no Consideration for the Money we solicited— I replied that we offered the same Consideration that other Nations did who borrowed Money Vizt: The Repayment of the Principal with Interest. He asked me if we had nothing further to offer, and mentioned Ship Timber. I said we had Ship Timber, but that as it belonged to Individuals, the Public could not get it otherwise than by Purchase, and that it could answer no purpose to borrow money with one Hand, and instantly repay it with the other, for that a Repayment in Money, or in Ship Timber was the same thing in fact, and differed only in Name. Besides that if Spain wanted Timber from America, it would be better in case he went there, that he should be charged with that business, than that it should be under the direction of Congress, for that public works were always more expensive than private. He agreed in this—4 He again asked me whether I could think of nothing else to offer— I told him no— Whether there was nothing on the side of the Mississippi that I could offer, I told him nothing that I could think of except Land—and that I did not think it would be worth the King’s while to buy a hundred thousand pounds worth of Land there, considering the immense territories he already possessed. He inquired whether I thought Congress would draw for the whole Sum; I answered that it was in my Opinion not improbable, for that they would consider the acceptance of ten or twelve thousand Dollars, as a prelude to further Aids, naturally supposing that if the King afforded us any supplies at all, they would be such as would correspond with his dignity, and not limited to that little Pittance— He desired me to meet him the next Day at Mr. Del Campo’s which I promised to do.

I shortly after saw the French Ambassador, who among other things mentioned the proposed meeting at Del Campo’s, which, with various other circumstances, shews his being on Confidential terms with the Minister.

In the evening Mr. Gardoqui again paid me a visit, and pointedly proposed my offering the navigation of the Mississippi as a consideration for aids. I told him that object could not come in question in a Treaty for a Loan of One hundred thousand pounds, and Spain should consider that to render Alliances permanent, they should be so formed as to render it the Interest of both Parties to observe them. That the Americans almost to a Man believed that God Almighty had made that River a high way for the People of the upper Country to go to the Sea by; That this Country was extensive and fertile; That the General, many Officers, and others of distinction and Influence in America, were deeply interested in it; That it would rapidly settle, and that the Inhabitants would not readily be convinced of the Justice of being obliged, either to live without foreign Commodities, and lose the surplus of their Productions, or be obliged to transport both over rugged Mountains, and through an Immense wilderness, to and from the Sea, when they daily saw a fine River flowing before their Doors, and offering to save them all that trouble and Expense, and that without Injury to Spain. He observed that the present generation would not want this navigation, and that we should leave future ones to manage their own Affairs &c. &c.5

The next Day, that is the 4th. of Septr. I met Mr. Gardoqui at Mr. Del Campo’s— After some unconnected Conversation— I observed to Mr. Del Campo, that as all the Papers between the Minister and myself had passed through his Hands, it was unnecessary to give him any Information except what related to the present State of the Bills drawn upon me, which I proceeded to State in a short, but particular manner.6 He replied by making several strictures on the Impropriety of drawing Bills without previous Notice and Consent;— He remarked that they might with more propriety have been drawn on France, with whom we were allied, and who were richer than they;7 That the King must first take care of his own People before he could supply us;— That Spain had been brought into the War by our Quarrel, but received no Advantage from us;— That they had been told of our Readiness to assist in taking Pensacola &c. but instead of Aids, he had heard of nothing but demands from us;— That our Situation was represented as being deplorable, and that the Enemy talked of the submission of some of the States, and of negotiations being on foot for that purpose.8 Whether this Style proceeded from natural arrogance, or was intended to affect my Temper, I cannnot say— In either case I thought it most prudent to take no notice of it, but proceed calmly and cautiously, and the more so as this was the first time I had ever conversed with this Man. I told him in substance, though more at large, that the assurances given Congress of the friendly disposition of Spain by Mr. Mirailles and others had been confided in, and had induced Congress to expect the Aids in question;— That if this application could be called a demand it was still the first they had made to my knowledge.— That Men in Arms against the Enemies of Spain, were serving her, as well as themselves, and therefore might without impropriety request her Aid,— That our Separation from Britain, was an object important to Spain, and that the Success with which we had opposed her whole force for six Years, shewed what the Power of both, if under one direction might be capable of,— That I knew nothing of Spain’s having been drawn into the War by or for us, and that this was not to be found among the Reasons she had alledged for it;— That an attack on Pensacola could not be expected to be made by Troops actually employed in repelling the Enemy’s Assaults from their own Doors, and that the Principles of self-defence would not permit or justify it,—9 That Spain had much to expect in the future from our Commerce, and that we should be able as well as willing to pay our Debts;— That the Tales told of our despondency and Submission resulted from the Policy of the Enemy, not from fact, and I believed no more of their being private Negotiations between America and Britain than I did of their being private negotiations between Spain and Britain for a separate Peace, which the Minister assured me was not the Case;—10 That if on the arrival of the Bills, I had been told plainly that no Money could be advanced, further drafts would soon have been prevented,—but that a contrary conduct having been adopted, other Expectations had been excited,— That as to France, she had done, and was still doing much for us, and that her being our Ally, did not confer propriety upon every request that we could make her;— He still pressed this Point, and complained that the greater Part of the Money heretofore advanced by Spain had been laid out in France;—11 He saw that France was deriving great Commercial advantages from us, but that our Commerce never would be an object with Spain, because all her Productions would find a better Market in her own Colonies;— He desired a note of the Bills which had arrived, and then made some Reflections on the proposal of a Treaty;— We agreed perfectly well that mutual Interest should be the Basis of it, and I added that the good Opinion entertained of the King and Nation by America was also a pleasing circumstance,— He said, however that might be, America did not seem inclined to gratify Spain, in the only Point in which she was deeply Interested;— Here followed much Common place Reasoning about the navigation of the Mississippi, of which your Excellency has heretofore heard too much to require a Repetition;— He spoke also much of the difficulties of Spain as to Money matters, saying that their Treasures in America, could at present be of no use to them as they had given Orders that none should be sent home during the War, even if it continued these Ten Years, and this done in Order, by stopping the usual Current of Specie into Europe, to embarrass the measures which Great Britain must take to obtain her necessary Supplies.12

LbkCs, embedded in JJ to the President of Congress, 6 Nov., below, DNA: PCC, item 110, 1: 272–76; NNC: JJ Lbk. 1; CSmH.

1JJ’s report on these conferences formed part of his letter to the President of Congress, 6 Nov., below.

2See JJ to the firm of Messrs. Casa Mayor, 27 Aug., Dft, NNC (EJ: 8243). On 6 Sept., JJ was authorized to accept their bills to the amount of $1,110. As Carmichael had previously noted, his total acceptances as of 9 Sept. amounted to $14,000 out of $30,000 presented. See JJ to Francis Dana, 7 Sept., ALS, MHi (EJ: 4678), and Carmichael to the Committee for Foreign Affairs, 22 Aug. and 9 Sept., RDC description begins Francis Wharton, ed., The Revolutionary Diplomatic Correspondence of the United States (6 vols.; Washington, D.C., 1889) description ends , 4: 38, 53.

4For JJ’s previous discussions about repayment in ships, see his letter to Floridablanca, 22 June, above.

5JJ gave an account of this conference to Vergennes in his letter of 22 Sept., below.

6In a letter written at JJ’s direction, William Carmichael informed Campo that the bills presented to him and not yet accepted amounted to about $30,000. Carmichael to Campo, 4 Sept., AL, SpMaAHN: Estado, leg. 3884, exp. 4, doc. 72 (EJ: 12151).

7On French disruption of a loan Spain was currently seeking, see Notes on John Jay’s Conference with Floridablanca, 11 May, above.

8Floridablanca elaborated on British hopes for negotiations with some American states in his conference with JJ of 23 Sept., below.

9Miralles and Gérard had strongly hinted to Congress that if the United States helped Spain recover the Floridas, Spain would provide financial aid. See the editorial note “Congress Appoints John Jay Minister to Spain,” JJSP, 1 description begins Elizabeth M. Nuxoll et al., eds., The Selected Papers of John Jay: Volume 1, 1760–1779 (Charlottesville, Va., 2010) description ends : 711; and the Committee for Foreign Affairs to JJ, 16 June, above.

10On Floridablanca’s negotiations with Cumberland, see Carmichael to JJ, 18–19 June, above.

11On Spain’s one-million-livre grant in 1776, which was turned over to Beaumarchais, and on Spain’s current inability to raise funds, see the editorial note “John Jay’s Conference with Floridablanca” on pp. 94–104.

12For JJ’s report on this conference to Vergennes, see his letter of 22 Sept., below.

Index Entries