John Jay Papers
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From John Jay to Timothy Pickering, 9 February 1810

To Timothy Pickering

Bedford—9th. Feby 1810

Dear Sir

I wrote to you by the last mail1

On the 10 Augt. 1782 Doctr. Franklin & myself waited on C[oun]t. De Vergennes, and a Conference between him and us, on the subject of Oswalds Commission ensued. The Count declared his opinion that we might proceed to treat with Mr. Oswald under it— &c.— I observed that it would be descending from the Ground of Independence to treat under the Description of Colonies—&c. He replied that an Acknowledgemt. of our Independence, instead of preceding, must in the natural Course of Things be the Effect of the Treaty—&c.— He turned to Doctr. Franklin, and asked him what he thought of the Matter— the Doctr. said, he believed the Commission would do—

On returning, I could not forbear observing to Doctr. Franklin, that it was evident the Count did not wish to see our Independence acknowledged by Britain, until they had made all their uses of us. It was easy for them to foresee Difficulties in bringing Spain into a peace on modest Terms, and that if we once found ourselves standing on our own Legs, our Independence ac-knowledgd. and all our other Terms ready to be granted, we might not think it our Duty to continue in the War for the Attainmt. of Spanish Objects— but on the contrary, as we were bound by Treaty to continue the War ’till our Independence should be attained, it was the Interest of France to postpone that Event, until their own Views and those of Spain could be gratified by a Peace— and that I could no otherwise account for the ministers advising us to act in a manner inconsistent with our Dignity; and for Reasons, which he himself had too much understanding not to see the Falacy of— The Doctr. imputed this Conduct to the moderation of the Minister &c. &c. He also mentioned our Instructions as further Reasons for us our acquiescence in the advice and opinion of the Minister—

A Day or two afterwards, I had a long Conversation with Mr. Oswald respecting his Commission— He said he would immediately dispatch a Courier to London; and would press the Ministry for Permission to acknowledge our Independence without further Delay—which he accordingly did.

At this Time Oswalds Commission in form under the Great Seal had arrived, and Dr. Franklin & myself went to Versailles to inform the Count De Vergennes of it— The Count & myself again discussed the Propriety of insisting that our Independence should be acknowledged previous to a Treaty—&c.— The Count informed us, he had delayed doing Business with Mr. Fitzherbert until we should be ready to proceed with Mr. Oswald; and that he expected to see him the next Day, or the Day after—

Mr. Fitzherbert went the next Day to Versailles, and immediately dispatched a Courier to London:

Mr. Oswald was ^some time afterwards^ recd. an Answer to his Letter to the Ministry— it was than an acknowledmt. of our Independence should be an article in the Treaty—

When Mr. Oswald communicated to me the Letter which contained that Answer, I did not hesitate to tell him that his Court was misled by this &c. &c. and that I suspected that the Courier dispatched by Mr. Fitzherbert on his Return from Versailles, had been the means &c. He smiled, and after a little pause, said “why Count de Vergennes told Mr. Fitzherbert, that any commission was come— and that he thought it would do— and therefore that might now go on— and accordingly they did go on, to discuss certain points, and particularly that of Newfoundland”—

Mr. Oswald did not deny or contradict the Inference I drew from this vizt. That Mr. Fitzherbert, struck by this Conduct of the Count de Vergennes, and finding that the Commission given to Mr. Oswald, was deemed sufficient by him; thought it his Duty directly to inform his Court of it. &c &c I was not only persuaded that this was the Case, but also that Oswalds ill Success was owing to it—

These Considerations induced me to explain to him, what I supposed to be the natural Policy of this Court on the Subject, [illegible] and to shew him that it was the Interest of Britain to render us as Independent on France, as we were resolved to be on her. He soon adopted the same Opinion: but was at a Loss to see in what manner G. Britain, considering what had just past, could consistantly take further Steps at present. I told him that nothing was more easy, for that the issuing of another Commission would do it— He asked me whether he might write that to the Ministry— I told him he might— he then desired, in order to avoid mistakes, that I would give it to him, in writing, which I did as follows vizt.

“A Commission (in the usual Form) to Richd. Oswald Esqr. to treat of Peace or Truce with Commissioners vested with equal Powers, by and on the Part of the United States of America, would remove the objections to which his present one is liable; and render it proper for the American Commissioners to proceed to treat with him on the Subject of Preliminaries”—

I then reminded him of the several Resolutions of Congress, refusing to treat with british Commissioners on any other footing than that of Independence &c &c— I also intimated that in my opinion it could be best to give him our final and our decided Determination not to treat otherwise in writing, in the form of a Letter— He preferred this to a verbal answer— and the next Day I prepared such a Letter, and submitted it to Dr. Franklin— he did not approve of it. Mr. Oswald spoke to me about the Letter— I told him I had prepared the Draft of one, but that on further Consideration, and consulting with Dr. Franklin, we thought it best not to take the Liberty of troubling his Court with arguments and Reasonings which, without our aid, must be very evident to them. he appeared disappointed, and desired me to let him see the Draft— I did— He liked it, and requested a Copy of it— I took time to consider— The next Day I gave him a Copy, and also copies of the various Resolutions of Congress, which evince their adherance to their Independence. These Papers he sent by Express to London, and warmly recommended the issuing a new commission.

with a Letter dated 6 Sepr. 1782 Mr. De Rayneval Mr sent me his Memoire about Boundaries between us and Spain— in A Postscript to that Letter has these words “as I shall be absent some Days, I pray you to address your answer to Mr. Stenin Sec[retar]y. to the Council of State.”

On the 9 Septr 1782 I rec[eive]d. certain Information, that on the 7th. Mr. was ^Rayneval had^ gone to England— that it was pretended he was gone into the Country and that several Precautions had been taken to keep his real Destination a Secret—

On the 10 Septr. 1782— a Translation of Mr. Marbois Letter against our Sharing in the Fishery was put into my hands. I also learned from good authority that on the morning of Mr. Rayneval’s Departure, the Count d’Aranda had (contrary to his usual Practice) gone with Post Horses to Versailles, and was two or three hours in Conference with the Count de Vergennes and Mr. Rayneval before the latter set out.

All these Facts Connected with some others which need not now be particularised, led me to conjecture that Mr. Rayneval was sent to England for the following purposes—

1. To let Lord Shelburne know that the Demands of America, to be treated by Britain as Independent, previous to the Treaty were not approved or countenanced by their Courts— and that the offer of Britain to make that acknowledgment an article of the proposed Treaty, was in the Counts opinion sufficient.—

2. To sound Lord Shelburne on the subject of the Fishery, and to discuss whether Britain would agree to divide it with France to the Exclusion of all others—

3. To impress Lord Shelburne with the Determination of Spain to possess the exclusive navigation of the Gulph of Mexico; and of their Desire to keep us from the Mississippi— and also to hint the Propriety of such a Line, as on the one hand would satisfy Spain, and on the other leave to Britain all the country north of the Ohio—

4. To make such verbal Communications to Lord Shelburne, as it might not be adviseable to reduce to writing—and to judge from the General Tenor of his Lordships Conversation, whether it was probable, that a general peace on Terms agreable to France, could be effected; in order that, if that was the case, an immediate Stop might be put to the negociation—

This was a Period of Suspence and uncertaintly, and whatever part Britain might take, must necessarily be followed by important Consequences— no Time was therefore to be lost in counteracting what I supposed to be the objects of Mr. Raynevals Journey—

I mentioned his Journey to Mr. Oswald, and the 3 first of the abovementiond. objects—and made such Remarks as I thought were adviseable, but with more reserve than I wished; well knowing that they would be the Subject of a long Letter to the Ministry—

Reflecting on the Importance of apprizing Lord Shelburne of our Sentiments and Resolutions, and how much better they could be conveyed in Conversation than by Letter—and also believing that Mr. Vaughan was in confidential correspondence with him— I concluded to prevail if possible on him to go immediately to England. He agreed to go, and instantly dispatched a few Lines to Lord Shelburne, desiring that he would delay taking any Measures with Lord Mr. Rayneval, until he should see or hear from him.

I omit detailing the observations I committed to Mr. Vaughan as the object of your Inquiry at present doesn not demand them

This measure was taken without the knowledge of Dr. Franklin— Mr. Vaughan set out the Eveng. of the 11 Sepr. 1782—

On the 27 Septr. 1782 Mr. Vaughan returned, with the Courier who brought Mr. Oswald the new Commission— Mr. Vaughan well merited our Thanks—

The principal articles (they included the Fishery & our Extent to the Mississippi) were soon prepared, and agreed to by Mr Oswald, who sent them to his Court and in Letters to them expressed his opinion that they should be accepted— But on some Points his Court differed with him in Opinion—The Information he recd. from them on the 23 Octr. 1782— The Articles were not communicated to the French Minister— and it appeared to me that Dr. Franklin co-operated with me fairly, in obtaining the best Terms that we could for our Country—

On the 26 Octr. 1782 Mr. Adams arrived, and was certinaly very useful in the Discussions which were then pending— and which terminated in giving to the Preliminaries their last and settled Shape— they were signed the 30 Novr 1782—

These Schetches will afford answers to most of your Inquiries— I could add others of the same Import— Thus detached they lose much of their force—

That the Ct. De Vergennes would consider me as having sinned beyond Forgiveness, I expected and have experienced— It was also soon apparent that my Conduct had not afforded Gratification to some of my Countrymen

Doctr. Franklin uniformly behaved (as far as I observed or was informed of it) in a Manner that was calculated to impress on my Mind, an Opinion of his Esteem and Regard— He had Faults and Foibles, and I know them well.

On returning Home in 1784, I heard of warm Debates in Congress on a Resolution to censure us; but I did not suspect nor understand that the Doctr. had prepared the Way for it. I think Mr. Gerry must be well acquainted with those Proceedings.

The Facts you state are strong ones— I wish the Doctrs Letter to Moylan could be obtained; or the Evidence of it substantiated—

I hope this will come safe to your Hands— If there be any Point on which you wish for further Information, let me know it

With great Esteem & Regard I am Dear Sir your obt. Servt.

John Jay

The Honb. Timothy Pickering Esqr.

ALS, MHi: Pickering (EJ: 04813). Endorsed: “… recd 17th.” C, NNC (EJ: 09478). For TP’s reply, see his letter to JJ of 17 Feb. 1810, below.

For the events described in the above letter, see Richard Oswald’s Notes on Conversations with Benjamin Franklin and John Jay, 11, 13 Aug. 1782; Rayneval to JJ, 4 and 6 Sept. 1782; Rayneval’s Memoir on the Boundaries between Spain and the United States, [6 Sept. 1782]; JJ’s Draft of a Proposed Alteration in Oswald’s Commission, [9 Sept. 1782]; JJ to Richard Oswald, [10 Sept. 1782]; Richard Oswald to Thomas Townsend, 10 Sept. 1782; JJ to the Secretary of Foreign Affairs (RRL), 17 Nov. 1782; and the editorial notes “The Rayneval and Vaughan Missions to England;” and “John Jay Proposes Altering Richard Oswald’s Commission,” JJSP description begins Elizabeth M. Nuxoll et al., eds., The Selected Papers of John Jay (6 vols. to date; Charlottesville, Va., 2010–) description ends , 3: 57, 95–99, 99–100, 100–101, 102–8, 108–11, 112, 112–14, 115–21, 225–55.

1JJ to TP, 7 Feb. 1810, ALS, MHi: Pickering (EJ: 04812); Dft, without extracts, NNC (EJ: 09476). In his letter, JJ responded to queries posed by TP regarding the peace negotiations with Britain during the war of independence. See TP to JJ, 24 Jan 1810, ALS, NNC (EJ: 09474); C, MHi: Pickering (EJ: 04843).

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