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Notes on Debates, 7 February 1783

Notes on Debates

MS (LC: Madison Papers). For a description of the manuscript of Notes on Debates, see Papers of Madison description begins William T. Hutchinson, William M. E. Rachal, et al., eds., The Papers of James Madison (6 vols. to date; Chicago, 1962——). description ends , V, 231–34.

On motion of Mr. Lee who had been absent when the Report was yesterday negatived, the matter was reconsidered.1 The plan of takg the sense of Congs. on the several points as yesterday proposed by Mr. Madison was generally admitted as proper.2

The first question propd. in Come. of whole by Mr M——n3 was; Q: Shall a valuation of land within the U. S. as directed by the articles of confederation be immediately attempted!—8 ays—N. Y. only no. The States present, N. H. Mas: Cont. N. Y. N. J. Pa. Va. N. C. S. C. R. I. 1 member, Maryd. 1 do.4

By Mr. Wilson5

Q: Shall each State be called on to return to the U. S. in Congs. assd. the no. of acres granted to or surveyed for any person, and also the no. of buildings within it? 8 ayes—N. C. no—supposing this not to accord with the plan of referring the valuation to the States, which was patronized by that delegation, a supplement to this question was suggested as follows.6

Q: Shall the male inhabitants be also returned, the blacks & whites being therein distinguished? ay. N. C. no for same reason as above. Cont. divided.7

By Mr. Madison

Q: Shall the States be called on to return to Congs. an estimate of the value of its lands with the buildings & improvements within each respectively?8 After some discussion on this point in wch the inequalities which wd. result from such estimates were set forth at large; and effects of such an experiments in Virga. had been described by Mr. Mercer,9 and a comparison of an average valuation in Pa. & Va. which amounted in the latter to 50 PCt. more than in the former, altho’ the real value of land in the former was confessedly thrice that of the latter had been quoted by Mr. Madison10 the apprehensions from a referrence of any thing more to the States than a report of simple facts increased, and on the vote the States were as follows, N.H. Mas: N.J. Pa. Va. no: Mr. Bland ay. Mr. Lee silent: Cont. N.C. S.C. ay. N.Y. divd. So it passed in the negative11

Q: by Mr. Madison shall a period be now fixed beyond which the rule to be eventually estabd. by Congs. shall not be in force? ay, unanimously.12

by Mr. Madison Q: What shall that period be? Cont. was again for 3. years, which being negd. 5 yrs passed unanimously.13

Q: by Mr. Madison shall the rule so to be estabd. have retrospective operation so far as may be necessary for liquidating & closing the accts. between the U.S. & each particular State? Ay—Cont. no. Mr. Dyer & Mr. Mercer understood this as making the amt. of the several requisitions of Congs and not of the paymts. by the states the standard by which the accts. were to be liquidated and thought the latter the just quantum for retrospective apportionment. Their reasoning however was not fully comprehended.14

1JM Notes, 5–6 Feb. 1783, and n. 12; JCC description begins Worthington Chauncey Ford et al., eds., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774–1789 (34 vols.; Washington, 1904–37). description ends , XXIV, 117. “Mr. Lee” was Arthur Lee of Virginia.

2JM Notes, 5–6 Feb. 1783, and n. 11. In his old age JM inserted his surname, or its last four or five letters, wherever he referred to himself in his notes of 7 February.

3After adopting Lee’s motion, “Congress was then resolved into a committee of the whole” (JCC description begins Worthington Chauncey Ford et al., eds., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774–1789 (34 vols.; Washington, 1904–37). description ends , XXIV, 118). JM’s “first question” was seconded by Elias Boudinot (NA: PCC, No. 36, III, 448).

4The manuscript motion in JM’s hand reads, “1. Shall the valuation of the land within the U.S. as directed by the Articles of Confederation be immediately attempted?” Canceled below this is the following, also in JM’s hand, “Shall the sd valuation be referred to the several States?” (NA: PCC, No. 36, III, 469; JCC description begins Worthington Chauncey Ford et al., eds., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774–1789 (34 vols.; Washington, 1904–37). description ends , XXIV, 118).

5James Wilson’s motion, seconded by William Floyd, is in Wilson’s hand (NA: PCC, No. 36, III, 467). For Charles Thomson’s copy of the motion, see ibid., No. 36, III, 448. See also JCC description begins Worthington Chauncey Ford et al., eds., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774–1789 (34 vols.; Washington, 1904–37). description ends , XXIV, 119, and n. 2.

6At the outset of the debate on land valuation, the North Carolina delegates were William Blount, Benjamin Hawkins, Abner Nash, and Hugh Williamson. They evidently agreed on how the problem should be solved (Burnett, Letters description begins Edmund C. Burnett, ed., Letters of Members of the Continental Congress (8 vols.; Washington, 1921–36). description ends , VI, 462–63, 517–18). Blount unquestionably and Nash probably had left Congress by 7 February (ibid., VII, lxxii; Jefferson to JM, 15 Feb. 1783). Nash was a member of the Rutledge committee, which on 6 January had rendered a report on land valuation. Hawkins served on the grand committee to which the Rutledge report was referred on 13 January (JM Notes, 9–10 Jan., and n. 2; 13 Jan.; 31 Jan. 1783; JCC description begins Worthington Chauncey Ford et al., eds., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774–1789 (34 vols.; Washington, 1904–37). description ends , XXIV, 113, and n.).

7The question is in the hand of Daniel Carroll, and Thomson, although making a copy of the motion, recorded the vote on Carroll’s manuscript (NA: PCC, No. 36, III, 448, 467; JCC description begins Worthington Chauncey Ford et al., eds., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774–1789 (34 vols.; Washington, 1904–37). description ends , XXIV, 119, and n. 2). On the issue of slaves in relation to valuation, see JM Notes, 14 Jan.; 28 Jan. 1783, and n. 42.

8This motion, with several inconsequential differences in phraseology, is in Thomson’s hand with interlineations by JM (NA: PCC, No. 36, fol. 461; JCC description begins Worthington Chauncey Ford et al., eds., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774–1789 (34 vols.; Washington, 1904–37). description ends , XXIV, 118, and n. 2).

9For earlier references to “the inequalities” which would result from an evaluation by each state “of its lands with the buildings & improvements,” see JM Notes, 9–10 Jan.; 14 Jan., and nn. 7, 9; 31 Jan.; JM to Randolph, 14 Jan. 1783. John Francis Mercer referred to the “experiments in Virga.,” authorized by statutes of 5 and 28 January 1782, to apportion the total revenue to be levied by a tax on land among the counties or districts comprising several counties in accord with the “average price per acre” in each county or district. The evaluations made by the local commissioners were obviously so inconsistent that the returns had to be “equalized” at Richmond (Papers of Madison description begins William T. Hutchinson, William M. E. Rachal, et al., eds., The Papers of James Madison (6 vols. to date; Chicago, 1962——). description ends , V, 311, n. 10; 347–48; 350, and nn. 18, 20; JM Notes, 14 Jan., and n. 7; 28 Jan. 1783, and n. 42).

10In their dispatch of 24 March 1783 to Governor Alexander Martin, the North Carolina delegates in Congress remarked that, for purposes of levying state taxes, Virginia had rated the value of her lands one-third higher than Pennsylvania had rated hers; but, in truth, the average value of land in Pennsylvania was one-third higher than in Virginia (Burnett, Letters description begins Edmund C. Burnett, ed., Letters of Members of the Continental Congress (8 vols.; Washington, 1921–36). description ends , VII, 98). Although the source of JM’s information is unknown, he may have derived his estimate of the value of Virginia’s land from a recent conversation with Jefferson in Philadelphia (JM to James Madison, Sr., 1 Jan. 1783, nn. 2, 4). See also Papers of Madison description begins William T. Hutchinson, William M. E. Rachal, et al., eds., The Papers of James Madison (6 vols. to date; Chicago, 1962——). description ends , V, 345, hdn.; 348; 350, n. 18.

11JCC description begins Worthington Chauncey Ford et al., eds., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774–1789 (34 vols.; Washington, 1904–37). description ends , XXIV, 118. JM and Mercer evidently voted “no.” JM’s tally accords with that of Thomson (NA: PCC, No. 36, III, 461; JCC description begins Worthington Chauncey Ford et al., eds., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774–1789 (34 vols.; Washington, 1904–37). description ends , XXIV, 118, and n. 2).

12Thomson’s version reads, “Shall any period be fixed beyond which the rule which shall be eventually established b[y] Congress shall not be in force” (NA: PCC, No. 36, III, 448; JCC description begins Worthington Chauncey Ford et al., eds., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774–1789 (34 vols.; Washington, 1904–37). description ends , XXIV, 118). Jottings in four different hands on an undated page include the following by JM, “Shall any period be fixed beyond which Rule shall be eventually established by Congress, shall not be in force?” Instead of “beyond which,” he at first wrote, “at this time for the duration of the” (NA: PCC, No. 24, fol. 69).

13JM Notes, 5–6 Feb. 1783. Thomson did not note that Connecticut’s three-year proposal was rejected, writing only, “Answered unanimously: Not exceeding five years and &c.” (NA: PCC, No. 36, III, 448; JCC description begins Worthington Chauncey Ford et al., eds., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774–1789 (34 vols.; Washington, 1904–37). description ends , XXIV, 118, and n. 1).

14The manuscript of this question, slightly altered in phraseology, is in JM’s hand (NA: PCC, No. 36, III, 475; JCC description begins Worthington Chauncey Ford et al., eds., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774–1789 (34 vols.; Washington, 1904–37). description ends , XXIV, 119, and n. 1). JM implied that the question received an affirmative reply, but Thomson copied and canceled this query in his own record (NA: PCC, No. 36, III, 448; JCC description begins Worthington Chauncey Ford et al., eds., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774–1789 (34 vols.; Washington, 1904–37). description ends , XXIV, 119). Evidently the committee of the whole decided to adjourn and resume at its next meeting a consideration of the Dyer-Mercer interpretation of “retrospective operation.” See JM Notes, 5–6 Feb., and n. 9; 8 Feb. 1783; JCC description begins Worthington Chauncey Ford et al., eds., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774–1789 (34 vols.; Washington, 1904–37). description ends , XXIV, 119–20.

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