John Jay Papers
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From John Jay to Robert R. Livingston, 19 July 1783

To Robert R. Livingston

Passy 19 July 1783—

Dear Robt.

our Dispatches by Barney must be ready the Day after Tomorrow.1 The many Letters I have written, and have still to write, together with Conferences, Company &ca. keep me fully2 employed. You will therefore excuse my not descending so much to particulars, as both of us indeed might wish—3

As little that passes in Congress is kept entirely secret, we think it prudent at least to postpone giving you a more minute Detail than you have already recd., of the Reasons which induced us to sign the provisional Articles without previously communicating them to the french Minister.4 For your private Satisfaction however I will make a few Remarks on that Subject.

Your Doubts respecting the Propriety of our Conduct in that Instance appear to have arisen from the following Considerations5

  • 1. That we were entertained and were influenced by Distrusts and Suspicions which do not seem to You to have been altogether well founded—
  • 2. That we signed the Articles without previously communicating them to this Court.

With Respect to the first. In our Negociation with the british Commissioner it was essential to insist on, and if possible obtain his Consent to four important concessions—

(1) That Britain should treat with us as being what we were, vizt. an independent People.

The french Minister thought this Demand premature, & that it ought to arise from, and not precede the Treaty—

(2) That Britain should agree to the Extent of Boundary we claimed—

The french Minister thought our Demands on that head, extravagant in themselves, and as militating against certain views of Spain which he was disposed to favor.

(3) That Britain should admit our Right in common to the Fishery.

The french Minister thought this Demand too extensive

(4) That Britain should not insist on our reinstating the Tories

The french Minister argued that they ought to be reinstated6

Was it unnatural for us to conclude from these Facts that the french minister was opposed to our succeeding on these four Points in the Extent we wished? It appeared evident that his Plan of a Treaty for America, was far from being such as America would have preferred; and as we disapproved of his model, we thought it imprudent to give him an opportunity of moulding our Treaty by it—

Whether the Minister was influenced by what he really thought best for us, or by what he really thought best for France, is a Question which however easy or difficult to decide, is not very important to the Point under Consideration—whatever his motives may have been, certain it is that they were such as opposed our System; and as in private Life it is deemed imprudent to admit opponents to full Confidence, especially respecting the very Matters in Competition, so in public affairs7 the like Caution seems equally proper

Secondly— But admitting the Force of this Reasoning, why, when the articles were compleated, did we not communicate them to the french Minister, before we proceeded to sign them? for the following Reasons—

The Expectations excited in England by Lord Shelbourn’s Friends, that he would put a speedy Period to the war, made it necessary for him either to realize those Expectations, or prepare to quit8 his Place. The Parliament being to meet before his Negociations with us were concluded, he found it expedient to adjourn it for a short Term, in Hopes of their meeting it with all the advantage that might be expected from a favorable Issue of the Negociation. Hence it was his Interest to draw it to a Close before that Adjournment should expire; and to obtain that End both he and his Commissioner became less tenacious on certain Points than they would otherwise have been. Nay we have, & then had, good Reason to believe that the Latitude allowed by the british Cabinet for the Exercise of Discretion was exceeded on that occasion—

I must now remind you that the King of G. Britain had pledged himself, in Mr Oswald’s Commission, to confirm and ratify not what Mr Oswald should verbally agree to, but what be should formally sign his Name and affix his Seal to.

Had we communicated the articles when ready for signing to the french Minister, he doubtless would have complimented us on the Terms of them, but at the same Time he would have insisted on our postponing the Signature until the Articles then preparing between France Spain & Britain should also be ready for signing, he having often intimated to us that we should all sign at the same Time and Place. This would have exposed us to a disagreable Dilemma.

Had we agreed to postpone signing the articles, the british Cabinet might & probably9 would have10 taken advantage of it. They might (if better prospects had offered) have insisted that the articles were still Res infecta11 That Mr Oswald had exceeded the Limits of his Instructions, and for both these Reasons that they conceived themselves still at Liberty12 to dissent from his opinions, & to forbid his executing a Set of Articles they could not approve of. It is true that this might not have happened, but it is equally true that it might, and therefore it was a Risque of too great Importance to run. The whole Business would in that Case have been set afloat again, and the Minister of France would have had an opportunity at least of approving the objections of the british Court, and of advising us to recede from Demands which in his opinion were immoderate, and too inconsistent with the claims of Spain to meet with his Concurrence.

If on the other Hand, we had contrary to his Advice and Request, refused to postpone the signing, it is natural to suppose that such Refusal would have given more offence to the french Minister, than our doing it without consulting him at all about the Matter—

Our withholding from him the Knowledge of these Articles until after they were signed, was no violation of our Treaty with France, and therefore she has no Room for Complaint, on that Principle, against the United States—

Congress had indeed made and published a Resolution not to make peace but in Confidence and in Concurrence with France. So far as this Resolution declares against a separate peace, it has been incontestably observed—and admitting that the Words in Confidence and in Concurrence with France, mean that we should mention ^to the french Minister^ and consult with ^him^ about every Step of our Proceedings, yet it is most certain that it was founded on a mutual Understanding that France would patronize our Demands and assist us in obtaining the Objects of them— France therefore by discouraging our claims ceased to be entitled to the Degree of Confidence respecting them which was specified in the Resolution. It may be said that France must admit the Reasonableness of our Claims, before we could properly expect that she should promote them— She knew what were our Claims before the Negociation commenced, tho she could only conjecture what Reception they would meet with from Britain. If she thought our Claims extravagant, she may be excusable for not countenancing them in their full Extent; but then we ought also to be excused for not giving her the full Confidence on those Subjects which was promised on the implied Condition of her supporting them—

But Congress positively instructed us to do nothing without the advice & Consent of the french Minister, and we have departed from that Line of Conduct— This is also true—but then I apprehend that Congress marked out that Line of Conduct for their own Sake, and not for the Sake of France— The Object of that Instruction was the supposed Interest of America, and not of France; and we were directed to ask the advice of the french Minister, because it was thought advantageous to our Country that we should recieve and be governed by it. Congress only therefore have a Right to complain of our Departure from the Line of that Instruction.13

If it be urged that Confidence ought to subsist between Allies, I have only to remark that as the French Minister did not consult us about his Articles, nor make us any Communications about them, our giving him as little Trouble about our’s did not violate any Principle of Reciprocity.

Our joint Letter to You by Capt. Barney14 contains an Explanation of our Conduct respecting the separate Article.—

I proceed now to your obliging Letter of the 1st May, for which I sincerely thank You.

This will probably find you at Claremont— I consider your Resignation as more reconcileable to your Plan and views of Happiness,15 than to the public Good. The War may indeed be ended, but other Difficulties of a serious Nature remain; and require all the address and wisdom of our best men to manage—

As Benson informed You that my Family had no present occasion for Supplies from me, I am more easy on that Head than I have been. I have some fear however that they may rather have been influenced to decline my offers, by Delicacy with Respect to me, than by the Ease of their Circumstances. I wish you would take an opportunity of talking freely with my Brother Peter on this Subject—assure him that it would distress me greatly were he or indeed any of the Family to experience Embarrassments in my Power to obviate—he may share with me to the last Shilling, and so may Nancy, about whom until within a Day or two I had been very uneasy. tell them and Foedy that I mean if God pleases, to return next Spring, and that one of the greatest Pleasures of my Life will be that of rendering it subservient to their Ease and Welfare. I write to Foedy by this Opportunity and authorize him to draw upon me for £150 York money to be divided between the three—16 If on conversing with Peter you should find that more would be convenient to him, be pleased to supply it, and draw upon me for the amount at thirty Days Sight.

I intend in my next to send You a State of my private Account with the public— I have not Time now to prepare it—

What you mention of the Conduct of two certain Gentlemen with Respect to You, does not surprize me. I know them both.17

I have lately heard of Mr Kissam’s Death. it affected me much. he was a virtuous and agreable Man, and I owed him many Obligations. His Children are now orphans. I am God-father to one of his Sons, named Saml. after his Uncle a very worthy Friend of ours, for whom I had a great Regard, and who I hear is also dead. When you go to New York pray make some Inquiries about that unfortunate Family, and let me know the Result. I have lately recd. a Letter from one of the Sons, who it seems is at Edinburgh, and who before the War, was a promising Boy— When I see New York I expect to meet the Shades of many a departed Joy—18

Thinking of Mr Kissam’s Family, calls to my Mind the Fate of the Tories. As far as I can learn, the ^general^ opinion in Europe is that they have Reason to complain, and that our Country ought to manifest Magnanimity with Respect to them. Europe neither knows nor can be made to believe what inhuman barbarous wretches the greater Part of them have been, and therefore is disposed to pity them more than they deserve.

I hope for my Part that the States will adopt some Principle for deciding on their Cases—and that it will be such an one as, by being perfectly consistent with Justice and Humanity, may meet with the approbation not only of disinterested19 and Nations at present, but also20 of dispassionate Posterity hereafter. My opinion would be, to pardon all, except the faithless and the cruel, and publicly to declare that by this Rule they should be judged and treated. indiscriminate Severity would be wrong as well as unbecoming; nor ought any Man to be marked out for Vengeance, because as King James said, he would make a bonny Traitor.21 in short, I think that the faithless and the cruel should be banished forever, and their Estates confiscated. It is just and reasonable—as to the Residue, who have either upon Principle openly and fairly opposed us, or who from Timidity have fled from the Storm, and remained inoffensive; let us22 not punish the first for behaving like men, nor be extremely severe to the latter because Nature had made them like Women—

I send you a Box of plaister Copies of Medals. If Mrs Livingston will permit you to keep so many mistresses, reserve the Ladies for Yourself, and give the Philosophers and Poets to Edward—

Now for our Girls— I congratulate you on the Health of the first, the Birth of the Second, and the promising appearance of both— I will chearfully be Godfather to the latter—what is her name?23

Our little one is doing well, and will have a Brother or Sister next month. If People in Heaven see what is going on here below, my ancestors24 must derive Pleasure from comparing the Circumstances attending the Expulsion of some of them from this Country, with those under which my Family will be encreased in it.

Since my Removal to this place, where the air is remarkably good, and the pain in my Breast has abated, and I have now no Fever.

Mrs. Jay is tolerably well—assure Mrs. Livingston and our other Friends with you, of our Regard— I am Dr Robt. Your afft. Friend

John Jay

The Hon’ble Robt. R Livingston Esqr

ALS, NHi: Robert R. Livingston (EJ: 844). Endorsed by RRL. Dft, PPInd (EJ: 11969). Tr, NN: Bancroft (EJ: 2748).

1Although scheduled to leave on 21 July, Barney did not depart until 1 Aug. 1783. See “The Commissioners Defend the Treaty” (editorial note) on pp. 416–19. He reached Philadelphia on 12 Sept. 1783. See PJM description begins William T. Hutchinson, William M. E. Rachal, Robert A. Rutland et al., eds., The Papers of James Madison, Congressional Series (17 vols.; Chicago and Charlottesville, Va., 1962–91) description ends , 7: 314, 315.

2“Tightly” excised in the Dft; “fully” substituted.

3The letter that follows replies both to RRL’s private letter of 1 May and to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs to the American Peace Commissioners, 25 Mar. 1783, above, to which the American Peace Commissioners’ letter of 18 July also replies.

5Here, JJ reproduces the substance of the material which was excised at BF’s suggestion from the commissioners’ official reply of 18 July to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs.

6For articulation of these points, see John Jay’s Draft of the American Peace Commissioners to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, 18 July, above.

7“Transactions” excised in the Dft and replaced with “affairs.”

8The previous three words were substituted for “Expose himself to popular odium and the Hazard of” in the Dft.

9“(In Case a prospect of doing better ^success^ had offered)” was excised in the Dft.

10Here “Either prevailed upon themselves or been prevailed into” was excised in the Dft.

11Used as a legal expression for “unfinished business,” “an unaccomplished act,” or “without obtaining his end.”

12Here in the Dft, JJ excised “either to accede to or reject them”.

13Here in the Dft, JJ excised: “Besides as it was a private one to their Ministers this cannot”.

14The joint letter of 18 July 1783, above.

15“Private Interest and” excised in Dft.

16See JJ to Frederick Jay, 18 July 1783, Dft, NNC (EJ: 6341).

17See above, RRL to JJ, 1 May 1783, referring to James Duane and John Morin Scott.

18Benjamin Kissam Sr. died 25 Oct. 1782. Benjamin Kissam Jr. (1759–1803), who received his M.D. at Edinburgh in 1783, served as professor of medicine at Columbia College, 1785–92. The earliest letter from Dr. Kissam to JJ that has been located is dated 3 Dec. 1783, ALS, NNC (EJ: 6727). No information has been found on the death of Dr. Samuel Kissam, or on his nephew, JJ’s godson, Samuel Kissam. Benjamin Kissam’s other children included Peter Rutgers Kissam (b. 1756), later a merchant; Richard Sharpe Kissam (b. 1763), later a doctor; Adrian Kissam (b. 1765), later a lawyer; and Helena (b. 1769), later wife of the Dutchess County lawyer Philip Livingston Hoffman. See Edward Kissam, Kissam Family in America: from 1644 to 1825 (New York, 1892). For further evidence of JJ’s concern for the Kissam family, see his letter to JA, 16 Feb. 1788, Dft, NNC (EJ: 7466).

19“Dispassionate” in Dft.

20“With disinterested and cool thinking” excised in Dft.

21“The Plunder is not a justifiable Object of Punishment” excised in Dft. “A rich man, says Kings James, makes a bonny traitor” was also quoted by Thomas Paine in a letter to Joseph Reed of 4 June 1780. See William Bradford Reed, ed., The Life and Correspondence of Joseph Reed (2 vols.; Philadelphia, 1847), 2: 219. The reference is to a widely circulated but probably untrue anecdote regarding King James I’s designs on the property of a prosperous lord. See, for example, The Gentleman’s Magazine: or Gentleman’s Monthly Intelligencer 1 (1732): 187; Jeremiah Whitaker Newman, The Loungers’ Common-Place Book: or Miscellaneous Collections in History, Criticisms, Biography, Poetry, and Romance (3 vols.; London, 1803], 3: 125.

22“Forgive” in Dft.

23“While you Live, and a father to her in Case you should leave her Infancy which God forbid ^I^ ^survive you and my [Cause?] be [reasonable?]^ excised here in Dft.

24“Grandfather” excised in Dft. This paragraph is elaborately reworked in the Dft but the excisions are not legible.

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